It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal • Hacker News Board

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#541

Post by Larrikin » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #534

hw wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds and thousands of dollars". Same can be said for software. Now it’s all SaaS where you have to pay monthly and choose from different pricing tiers or ala carte feature options to ‘win’ in a business sense.

> Now it’s all SaaS where you have to pay monthly and choose from different pricing tiers or ala carte feature options to ‘win’ in a business sense. While some businesses abuse SaaS pricing (e.g., MS office for very basic uses, acrobat pro for basic uses, etc.), I think the SaaS pricing model has aligned the interests of developers and consumers (esp. smaller devs and smaller consumers) in a way that has allowed a wi…

For nearly everything users should be able to pay once and then pay for updates. The model Jet Brains was forced into should be the norm and not the abusive model Apple has normalized and forced onto consumers

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#542

Post by callahad » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

BlueTemplar wrote: post #528

mywaifuismeta wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model is extremely standard in mobile games, especially in Asia, where it has been the norm for almost a decade in gacha games, and where people are used to paying and gambling. They all have the same mechanics, or variations of them, Diablo doesn't really do anything innovative here, but it certainly is on the aggressive side. A lot of the outrage comes from the fact that 1. Diablo is originally a PC-based IP wi…

Remember also how Diablo 3 was released (in most countries) with a real money Auction House, which was later removed because even the devs realized that it hurt the game ?

What's interesting is Diablo Immortal's monetization introduces a level of indirection compared to Diablo 3's Real Money Auction House (RMAH), and I think it's sufficiently distinct to avoid the same fate.

In D3, you could buy equipment directly from the RMAH. This undermined core gameplay mechanisms since any loot you were likely to find would be inferior to whatever was available for pennies in the store. So why bother running the dungeons at all?

In DI, you don't buy gear directly with money. Instead, you buy access to dungeons with guaranteed drops of high level items which are statistically infeasible to obtain any other way. But this still lends plausible deniability: you're not buying your gear, you're just buying a spin at the (very weighted) wheel.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#543

Post by badkitty » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

lcw wrote: post #509

nickjj wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Technically no but Diablo and ARPGs in general are all about items and for a very large class of players who enjoy this genre it's all about min / maxing your character, or at the very least getting improved items / skills / kill speed as you progress. Tying items into a cash shop in the way it's been done here feels really dirty, like it's goi…

This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addictions to games and kids. I feel like people are upset about p2w mechanics in the game but at the same time say "I'm fine with cosmetic mtx" which makes the whole argument read to me as you are upset that people want to use money to win and that means they sho…

No post body was provided.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#544

Post by ayngg » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

jordan801 wrote: post #505

Here's the problem with this game: - Blizzards slew of beloved franchises makes it easy to entrap nostalgia addicted masses to a number of pay to win clones. Or slowly implement these types of features into existing games. - Half of the assets are from a 10 year old prequel. This game was cheap to make and will have an insanely high profit margin. Leading to perpetuation of this model. - Scummy mobile pay to win is a…

Blizzard is close to being a zombie company, the last game with true Blizzard pedigree was probably around 15 years ago, their last decent game was almost 10 years ago, they are milking the last few drops from the geriatric cash cow that is WoW, they have completely failed to capitalize on competitive games with Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm or even WoW arena, and they are all languishing, Diablo Immortal is a mobile p2w game, while all they have to look forward to is Overwatch 2 which is a glorified patch and if Diablo 4 isn't some smash success they have nothing else.

Add on top of that the company culture, sexual harassment scandals, all of the significant employees leaving, the Blizzard everyone knew is long gone. Gamers have moved past Blizzard, new gamers don't care about their games, so the only thing they have left is the IP to milk nostalgia from, which is why they finally started to make remakes of Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#545

Post by pdimitar » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

lcw wrote: post #509

nickjj wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Technically no but Diablo and ARPGs in general are all about items and for a very large class of players who enjoy this genre it's all about min / maxing your character, or at the very least getting improved items / skills / kill speed as you progress. Tying items into a cash shop in the way it's been done here feels really dirty, like it's goi…

This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addictions to games and kids. I feel like people are upset about p2w mechanics in the game but at the same time say "I'm fine with cosmetic mtx" which makes the whole argument read to me as you are upset that people want to use money to win and that means they sho…

Your take is even more off since you didn't see the blindingly obvious difference: having a choice in your game progression.

- Cosmetics are a choice. They don't affect your progress in any way.

- Bought character power is not a choice. You can happily play X amount of hours but at one point you'll hit a brick wall you can't overcome without money. And no don't tell me that "eventually you will", because elementary psychology says people get discouraged and quit if their effort isn't rewarded until a certain time threshold. That time is much less than what a F2P will allow you.

I don't know if you deliberately missed the point or you can't see something that's easy to notice.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#546

Post by ThrustVectoring » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

mdavis6890 wrote: post #525

A better way to think about it is that these games are designed for - and paid for by - exactly the very few people who want to spend this much on winning a game. Everybody else gets to free-ride on this, and only pay what they want (mostly zero)

You have to identify and avoid the p2w rails in order to pull this off. Specifically:

1. Put the game down when you get hard time-gated

2. Don't do PvP

3. Especially with a leaderboard feature

4. Especially in grouped content

I'm sure it's a good game up until the PMs and behavioral psychologists decide you're invested enough to put up with time-walls.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#547

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

jordan801 wrote: post #505

Here's the problem with this game: - Blizzards slew of beloved franchises makes it easy to entrap nostalgia addicted masses to a number of pay to win clones. Or slowly implement these types of features into existing games. - Half of the assets are from a 10 year old prequel. This game was cheap to make and will have an insanely high profit margin. Leading to perpetuation of this model. - Scummy mobile pay to win is a…

[deleted]

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#548

Post by erulabs » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

VHRanger wrote: post #539

erulabs wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its inevitable and I don't think it's a good long term monetization strategy. It's just short term planning with complete disregard for the long term health of the company. How the board of directors doesn't see this is shocking. Maybe they do and also want to milk it today instead of tomorrow just like the C-suite. Yes, exploitative mobile gaming is profitable as hell - but in the current world is alie…

> I don't think it's a good long term monetization strategy You can look at plenty of games that have lived for a long time on this: - Supercell games (Clash Royale, Clash of Clans, Hay Day, etc.) - Genshin Impact - Heartstone and Magic Arena - Rainbow 6 The Division (most profitable Ubisoft game)

Of those listed I've only played Hearthstone and Clash Royale. I reached top rank in Clash Royale, and I believe I only spent 5 dollars on it to get a neat looking board to play on - so I don't think they generate quite the ill-will that a legendary PC competitive game developer like Blizzard generates when they produce something much worse than most existing (at least in the west) mobile free to play games.

My point isn't that these sorts of games aren't profitable - it's that they should have spun up a new studio with a new name instead of lighting the good will of a 25+ year IP that's held so dearly on fire.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#549

Post by cehrlich » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #508

encrux wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does work though. "Escape from Tarkov" and "It takes two" are just some of the more noteworthy ones. There's tons more on steam. It's just the mobile market that's screwed entirely. Which I find odd, because I'm convinced there are opportunities for games that work especially well on small screens with touchscreen (like Nintendo demonstrated half a decade before mainstream smartphones)

Precisely, Nintendo tried a sane sales model with Super Mario Run back in 2016. You would have access to some levels, then pay and unlock the rest. No more in-app purchases, IIRC. The reaction was a lot of angry comments about the game being locked and that it should be free-to-play, etc. Their next games (like Mario Kart Tour) went back to the exploitative loot box model.

Mario Run was also just not a very good game (this is obviously an opinion, but still…). I wonder how it would go if Nintendo tried releasing an actual good game for $10 or some other amount, not an infinite runner with a Mario skin.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#550

Post by wincy » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #513

lekevicius wrote: post #199

It's even more frustrating, because the game is good . I really enjoyed playing the first 30 levels or so. Good story, good controls, very satisfying gameplay. If I could pay $60 and just have a "classic" Diablo on my phone, I might. But I won't spend a cent on consumable in-app purchases. It is so sad that "make good game, sell it" model no longer works. It's all a wonky curve of "free - couple of dollars - hundreds…

Indeed. I'm personally not a victim of loot boxes and exploitative P2W tactics because I just don't buy them. But I just want to pay some amount once and have a good game in my Android phone, without ads and without constantly nagging me to spend more! I'll pay $60 also if the game is good, I just don't want to be put into a Skinner box constantly trying to milk my "engagement" and my pockets. Is that so much to ask?…

It’s even worse on mobile as the app might forcefully update you to a new Free to Play version. I spent $8 on Galaxy On Fire 2 HD which was acquired by another company then suddenly dropped the price and added ads and in app purchases. Very frustrating.