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Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

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Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#481

Post by mark_l_watson »

I have been following the World Economic Forum articles and talks about smart money: a digital currency that knows how it is used and by whom, can be 'turned off' for some types of purchases, etc. What Norway may do is just a small precursor to what the WEF crowd wants.

Sadly, I think regular people have lost the class war. As a libertarian this should drive me nuts, but as a practical matter I tend to accept the world as it is, and plan my life accordingly. In other words, 'play the current position on the chessboard.'

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#482

Post by guerrilla »

missedthecue wrote: post #462
guerrilla wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, that is absolutely false. They fulfill police duties in Sweden. Prior to that they were ubiquitous security guards and engaged in violence daily.

Even as police/security, they are not permitted to go out and kill people. They can act in a lethal manner if their life is in immediete danger, just like you or I can as normal citizens. That is not unique. The CEO of Securitas cannot decide to kill you and have his henchmen go do it. The leaders of governments can and do act like that.

Uhh the same rules go for them as police when they are employed so...

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#483

Post by Iv »

jacooper wrote: post #220
Iv wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, you literally have to track people's consumption to ration resources. During WWII it was done with state-issued ration tickets and a crackdown on the inevitable black market that emerged. That's a good alternative to this.

Why would Norway need to ration meat anyway ?

Ask tloriato that's hi scenario, not mine. I guess he fears the vega-fascist movement

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#484

Post by Iv »

gruez wrote: post #271
Iv wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A store can sell its data to authoritarian governments that can jail people, to insurance companies that in some countries can prevent you from getting a credit card, a loan or even a job. Now another question: what the best a government is likely to do with this data? What is the best a private company is likely to do with it?

>A store can sell its data to authoritarian governments that can jail people I find it unlikely that my local supermarket is going to sell my purchasing habits to China or Iran. I'm far more worried about my local government getting their hands on it, but at that point I don't see the distinction. >to insurance companies that in some countries can prevent you from getting a credit card, a loan or even a job. In what…

> I find it unlikely that my local supermarket is going to sell my purchasing habits to China or Iran.

Oh really? Do you think they run an ethical check on people who propose to buy their data? I a sure China is home to a lot of cheap backend services and their clients don't think twice about it.

> Are you sure you don't mean credit bureaus?

Probably yeah, I am not used to that American thing. People think the CCP invented the reputation score but US' private system predates that.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#485

Post by philistine »

verisimi wrote: post #357
philistine wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, you're fervently asking for a world without irregularities, without flaws. A just world. Our world isn't this way. It is unjust. Where you're born is restrictive on your opportunities, plain and simple. The only way to free yourself from the yoke of the US (I presume you are American) is to renounce your citizenship. Which means you cannot enjoy all that comes with this privilege, like living there. Are…

Does government make justice better or worse? I think most people are fair minded. The state is a tyrant though. What does it say about us, if are so accepting and defensive of it? How much money is it ok to forcibly take (tax)? If any is forcibly taken, are you enslaved? The are individual options are poor. But I'm not going to say the tyranny is 'good', 'right', 'acceptable'.

Wow. Chill out, it's just taxes.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#486

Post by dane-pgp »

jonahbenton wrote: post #460
dane-pgp wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dynamics of such a system are rarely considered, which is why it's such an easy trap for societies to fall into, especially societies with high regard for their institutions. It starts with the voices of reason ("Isn't there a danger this data could be abused?") being slowly pushed out, through lack of promotions or being transferred to other departments where they are a "better fit". Then this government body st…

No. Variations of the slippery slope argument fail to engage with the actual concrete issues, the actual social trajectory, and anything specific and contextual. Not engaging is not engaging. It is weak and solves nothing. The Norweigian government has specific plans for this data. Engage those plans. Concrete adversarial scenarios are in fact helpful from a policy and planning perspective. Generic narratives are not…

> Concrete adversarial scenarios are in fact helpful from a policy and planning perspective.

Right, and I'm saying that an agency which is tasked with gathering all this private data about innocent citizens, without a warrant, is going to attract people who will want to abuse it, just as other mass surveillance agencies have abused their powers in the past.

How much more concrete do I need to be? Do I need to give the names of actual Norwegian threat actors who I think might want to infiltrate this agency, and specify who they would sell the data to, or which of their ex-partners they would spy on, or which opposition politician's spending habits they would leak to which paper?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#487

Post by hammock »

panarky wrote: post #319
hammock wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores who track me are subject to the pressures of competitive enterprise. The government is not. And that's to say nothing of the fact that, at least in the US, about 50% of the entire population at any given time tend NOT to believe that the government has their best interest in mind

>> the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior If I was an evil mastermind dominating you for my own nefarious purposes, I probably wouldn't start by monitoring the pasta in your pantry.

What would you start with?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#488

Post by wutbrodo »

jonahbenton wrote: post #336
wutbrodo wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the mundane literal sense, they are subject to competition in a way government is not. This is blindingly obvious to anyone whose brain hasn't been rotted by extremist populist discourse. We (rightfully) worry about excessive market power when companies are still nowhere close to the degree of monopoly that govt has by design. I constantly make decisions at a moment's notice to patronize stores other than Ama…

With respect- I know what you mean when you say "government is monopolistic" but with a moment's reflection perhaps you will agree that- certainly in the US- it is an incorrect statement. There is the abstraction called "government" which in its definition implies a singleton-ness- even this in practice fails the test because every US jurisdiction is overseen by multiple overlapping "governmental" authorities, and pe…

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

As my point is about individual choice and control, overlapping jurisdictions are not relevant to my point: I'm effect you live under the single "government" that is the superposition of multiple jurisdictions and their interactions. The fact that weed is federally illegal and legal in CA doesn't mean I get to choose which law I like: they add up to a specific de facto set of rules and risks just like a unitary govt would (though less transparently).

Similarly, the use of voluntary services is clearly not what I'm referring to as monopolistic and coercive (except for their funding). There are a million and one things the government prevents or compels.

> nominal democratic control"- don't get me started. A responsive customer service agent is the devil's version of democracy. No thank you.

You've simply misread. "Nominal democratic control" is in reference to govt in my comment, and is contrasted with the lack of such control over corporations. I explicitly avoid the assumption of control over companies through any means other than consumer choice, where it exists.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#489

Post by Auracle »

st34m wrote: post #474
lambdaba wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. I'm on an all-meat diet and I turned my health around thanks to it. Most often people who advocate eliminating meat look sickly, because they are.

I never needed to turn around my health as a vegetarian. There's about a 99.999% chance that I'm stronger and faster than you, I wish I could demonstrate. You'd be embarrassed saying what you just said in front of me!

I believe vegetarians can be healthy.

However, I’ve identified many people that were vegans just by their looks before they (inevitably) announced it. You’re supposed to be able to supplement your way in to what you need but either the majority don’t or they’re still missing something.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#490

Post by Tor3 »

jerzyt wrote: post #458
Tor3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my comment above - you can buy beer elsewhere, unless it's stronger than the typical lager.

And what will stop them from monitoring the alcohol sales?

I replied to the statement "The state owns the only alcohol store." - the only text in the comment I replied to. And as it's factually wrong, I replied with a comment stating just that. There was nothing about monitoring in the comment I replied to, nor in my reply.

As for monitoring - as said elsewhere, if monitoring of supermarket sales will happen or not depends not only on what that particular office wants (SSB - central statistics bureau), but what politicians decide on. And, despite many comments here believing otherwise, it is actually quite common for Norwegian politicians to listen to massive resistance from the people, particularly when the reasoning behind the whole suggestion is quite questionable, as in this case. In any case, whether alcohol is sold here or there it wouldn't make any difference to the monitoring. And cash is still legal tender in Norway, even if there are some that don't like that fact. As for myself I believe only Mastercard really know how much money I use on wine. I don't think they know my preferences though (Italian, as it were)

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