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Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

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Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#451

Post by t_mann »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #445
t_mann wrote: post #443

It's happening in China, it's happening in arguably the most 'well-mannered' 'Western' country - at this point it's naive to assume mass data collection won't be coming to your country (and they might not always be as well-mannered as Norway currently is). Some might say 'I don't care' or 'only those who have something to hide have anything to worry about', but I respectfully disagree. For the same reason that I have…

Crypto/web3 as it is practiced offers absolutely zero protection against any of this. In fact, unless you use privacy chains (of which only few actually work) your Entire Transaction History is Public (!!). This is already a reality in most of cryptoland. Even if you trade on exchanges your entire order flow is immediately sold to the highest bidder, or if you're unlucky the exchange itself is trading against you. It…

'of which few actually work' could also have been phrased as 'several are already working' - how many do you need?

Even if the current offering isn't enough for your needs, how can 'there's not enough of it yet' be an argument against building more of it?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#452

Post by dotopotoro »

singularity2001 wrote: post #311
karencarits wrote: post #178

One should be aware that Norway already has very comprehensive registers and databases about the population. Currently, it has only been a benefit, I think, as it enables detailed quality control of say health care services and high-quality register studies. For example, all health/hospital records of deceased Norwegians are digitalized ten years after death and added to a national register. No way to refuse. In my o…

If of all countries Norway turns into a digital totalitarian state it would break my heart. With much power comes much … risk.

I kind of dont believe this (norway becoming authoritarian), but every power given to the government is like additional leverage in a stock market. With big leverage, if your unlucky, you feel it so much more.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#453

Post by karencarits »

Ansil849 wrote: post #449
jltsiren wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That attitude makes sense if you come from a low-trust society where the state apparatus thinks it's running an empire. Especially if the country is large and actively trying to reshape the world. Things look different in a small high-trust country with multiple political parties. Because the country is too weak and insignificant to change the world, the government tends to focus on administering the country. Because…

> Things look different in a small high-trust country with multiple political parties. Which country are you talking about? Surely not Norway, which is a monarchy.

What do you mean? It is small in terms of population size, it is a high-trust country (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-who-trust-governmen...), it has had the highest democracy index in the world every year since 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index), it has many political parties and there have been coalition governments for many years?

Yes, it is a constitutional monarchy which was introduced by vote, and given its support in the population, removing the monarchy would be quite undemocratic. One of the more radical parties in parliament has raised the issue many times; in 2019 their suggestion to abolish the monarchy got a record of 36 votes in parliament (against 130)

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#454

Post by gruez »

jonahbenton wrote: post #336
wutbrodo wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the mundane literal sense, they are subject to competition in a way government is not. This is blindingly obvious to anyone whose brain hasn't been rotted by extremist populist discourse. We (rightfully) worry about excessive market power when companies are still nowhere close to the degree of monopoly that govt has by design. I constantly make decisions at a moment's notice to patronize stores other than Ama…

With respect- I know what you mean when you say "government is monopolistic" but with a moment's reflection perhaps you will agree that- certainly in the US- it is an incorrect statement. There is the abstraction called "government" which in its definition implies a singleton-ness- even this in practice fails the test because every US jurisdiction is overseen by multiple overlapping "governmental" authorities, and pe…

>Policing? Lots of private security around.

private security is very limited in their ability to inflict violence.

>Money supply? Nope, nearly all dollars are created and manager by private entities.

They might be the people "creating" the money, but the monetary policy (which affects how much your dollars are actually worth) is set by the fed.

>Military? Also plenty of options here, none in any sense "well-regulated".

I mean, if all you're looking for are men with guns, PMCs would indeed meet your needs. However, if you need to face off against another developed country you only have one option.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#455

Post by dane-pgp »

jonahbenton wrote: post #341
dane-pgp wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowledge is power, and power corrupts, so what you're saying is "I don't mind giving the Norwegian government absolute power, because they aren't absolutely corrupt (yet)".

I just can't with the aphorisms. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. So there. Make an actual argument.

I'm sorry you don't like my simple-to-follow chain of aphorisms. My actual argument is expressed in more detail elsewhere on this page, specifically here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31622654

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#456

Post by wrycoder »

ako wrote: post #405
WanderPanda wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow people really forgot that privacy is all about privacy with respect to the government because they are the ones with the monopoly on violence. It is tragic that people think private firms could ever be as evil as governments

If you consider all the school shootings in the US the claim that government has a monopoly on violence is nonsense. There’s plenty of non governmental violence.

School shootings are an tiny part of the overall violence in the US, a country of 330 million people. We just keep hearing about it, way out of proportion, because it’s in the interest of the media (“if it bleeds, it leads”) and some politicians to keep pushing it.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#457

Post by FreqSep »

verisimi wrote: post #283
FreqSep wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree and see now that I made a bad choice of words there. Correcting it I would rephrase it to say that massive components of society are directly facilitated by the government as one example: (roads -> shipped goods, travel experiences, etc)

How do you like that the roads previous generations paid for are now being turned into bike lanes, that you pay to park, etc. Did the government make the right decisions then? Are they making the right decisions now?

Well, roads are temporary and it becomes a bit of a ship of Theseus question there to say who actually paid for them.

> Did the government make the right decisions then? Are they making the right decisions now?

Government is allowed to occasionally make the wrong decision. Perfection is an imperfect standard.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#459

Post by jimkleiber »

jimbobimbo wrote: post #139
jimkleiber wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the government said it was optional, but those who sign up get a 2% discount on their taxes? Would you find that more acceptable?

But this is not what is happening in Norway, isn't it? There's no alternative offer on the table, there's not even an invitation to propose an alternative, there's no opt out, only govt wanting to get deeper into private people's business.

I didn't dig into it but I assume you're correct for this Norwegian case.

I guess I was more curious if the main point of contention was the mandatory part of it or whether it was more about the fact it was coming from the government. I think some people distrust government so much that even if it were offered as opt-in, using a similar approach as a private company, some people would still trust a private company more than their government.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#460

Post by jonahbenton »

dane-pgp wrote: post #236
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a reasonable stance as long as you believe that no change will ever happen. Neither peaceful change from within, nor violent from outside.

The dynamics of such a system are rarely considered, which is why it's such an easy trap for societies to fall into, especially societies with high regard for their institutions. It starts with the voices of reason ("Isn't there a danger this data could be abused?") being slowly pushed out, through lack of promotions or being transferred to other departments where they are a "better fit". Then this government body st…

No. Variations of the slippery slope argument fail to engage with the actual concrete issues, the actual social trajectory, and anything specific and contextual. Not engaging is not engaging. It is weak and solves nothing.

The Norweigian government has specific plans for this data. Engage those plans. Concrete adversarial scenarios are in fact helpful from a policy and planning perspective.

Generic narratives are not.

Cheers.

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