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Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

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Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#201

Post by more_corn »

jvm___ wrote: post #90
giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

So, “it’s ok because someone already tries to do it and they’re worse?” This is the second worst argument against privacy I’ve ever heard after “I have nothing to hide”. Privacy is essential for human dignity. Tracking everything a person does and buys is dehumanizing and ripe for abuse.

But there’s no precedent for personal data being misused mishandled or abused right?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#202

Post by concordDance »

paulcole wrote: post #61
tloriato wrote: post #9

“Hello #3576. You have reached your 1kg monthly limit of natural meat. Please consult the official list for alternatives.”

Doing stuff like this today is going to be 100x better than what people 3 generations from now will have to live through thanks to climate change. The question is whether we’re willing to inconvenience ourselves today to protect future generations - and the answer is looking like no.

This kind of comment is one I only see from people who haven't actually read the IPCC's reports and don't actually have a feel for how bad it's going to be by 2100. Am I wrong?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#203

Post by davoneus »

Havoc wrote: post #12

Open to abuse & certainly not privacy friendly, but in a hypothetical world where governments can be trusted on that it seems very plausible that it could be a social plus. i.e. You can probably spot trends like person X spends a huge amount of their pay on nappies and babyfood...probably could do with some additional social help. Nordic countries probably come closest to said hypothetical but still seems kinda dicey

Well, it depends on what you call "Privacy". See, the Europeans (as a whole) take a completely different attitude towards Government and Private Organizations than Americans do. To many Americans, the Government is the big, bad wolf, trying to take everything from us. In Europe (to a much larger degree) they take the opposite stance. To many EU citizens, they can control the Government and it's policies at the ballot box, but not so the Corporations. That's why the best Privacy regulations regarding Corporations are coming from Europe, and not the US.

I won't say one way is better than the other, but it's telling that almost every major IT Security standard that deals with Privacy (absent NIST of course) takes its guidance from the EU.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#204

Post by taylorius »

jvm___ wrote: post #90
giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

At least you (hopefully) know what the Supermarket is up to - as you say, they just want to sell you more stuff. The government on the other hand - who knows what plans they might cook up.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#205

Post by Iv »

jacooper wrote: post #199
Iv wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Norway reaches the point where they have to ration meat, I don't see the problem with such a system.

You don't have to track everyone to ration resources. You can just say, 1KG per person, and voilla its done.

Uh, you literally have to track people's consumption to ration resources.

During WWII it was done with state-issued ration tickets and a crackdown on the inevitable black market that emerged. That's a good alternative to this.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#206

Post by concordDance »

bbddg wrote: post #180
leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea behind the separation is that the government has the ability to make you do something with the threat of force. Not to say we shouldn't put protections from private corporations in place, but they can't legally imprison you.

You're just describing laws. Is the worry here that they could more effectively enforce laws because of this tracking? Is that a bad thing?

It is when you don't trust the lawmaking process is acting in your best interests. And distrust of that process is extremely high atm (I believe trust in politicians is below 50% in the US).

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#207

Post by mensetmanusman »

Future conversation with government bureaucrat:

“I see that you are made of approximately 23% cheese.

That is above the state limits for health reimbursement, so I am sorry we cannot support you at the moment until your diet fits within government guidelines.”

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#208

Post by hp48fan »

vkou wrote: post #161
hp48fan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Their cashless culture is one of the reasons I hope I never do go to Scandinavia.

What are the other reasons?

I knew a (great) artist who spent almost her whole life in Norway and Sweeden. Shes in her nineties, speaks a half dozen languages, worked for Norwegian public TV. That is to say she's walked in the highest echelons on Nordic society.

Talking to her, she'd often bemoan that the prejudice that Nordic societies are very conformist is true.

Which is in line with what Ive experienced with Nordics

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#210

Post by MontyCarloHall »

Beltalowda wrote: post #143
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can still be done with anonymized data. It is not necessary to associate purchasing habits with national ID numbers to perform the analyses you listed.

I fail to see how you can get this kind of data from anonymized supermarket receipts? Entirely different data collection methods: sure. But the entire point of this is that was too difficult ("time-consuming and error-prone", according to the SSB).

Issue national ID cards that contain a private key. For each citizen, the government would encrypt a mapping of their national ID number -> anonymized ID ("anonID") using their corresponding public key. The anonID could only be used to look up anonymized demographic data, updated when new IDs (and thus new encryption keys) get issued, once every few years. When checking out at the supermarket, your national ID number and private key would be used to generate your anonID on the spot, under which your purchases would be recorded. Demographers could thus freely query mappings from anonID -> demographic info/supermarket purchase history, without revealing anyone's actual identity. Without knowing one's private key (which is embedded only in their national ID card), it would impossible to freely map national ID -> anonID.
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