Norway to track all supermarket purchases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#101

Post by jacknews » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #12

Open to abuse & certainly not privacy friendly, but in a hypothetical world where governments can be trusted on that it seems very plausible that it could be a social plus. i.e. You can probably spot trends like person X spends a huge amount of their pay on nappies and babyfood...probably could do with some additional social help. Nordic countries probably come closest to said hypothetical but still seems kinda dicey

Right, in a really, really ideal society, you wouldn't need to keep this kind of thing secret.

I understand salaries are already public in Norway. Why shouldn't they be? Unless you can't justify your earnings, for some reason.

I understand the 'big brother!' response to this kind of thing, I'm also squeamish about it. It does rely on a government that is trustworthy and accountable. But I don't think secrecy, paranoia, etc, is beneficial, compared to more openness.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#102

Post by jen20 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #64

gyaru wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state owns the only alcohol store.

> The state owns the only alcohol store. How do they feel about being responsible of delivering poison to people then? Somehow I can rationalize it if it's a transaction between private parties, but if the government acts as the drug dealer it's no better than a cartel.

Given that the alternatives to legal alcohol are well known, I’d imagine they feel fine about it.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#103

Post by molszanski » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

This communicates a different thing to me.

This reminds me that thanks to credit/debit cards and IT, supermarket chains, banks and corporation have a detailed information on what I buy.

And we have no idea how they use this information. We may only assume and I don't think we would be happy if we would found out.

Not that I want the government to know too.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#104

Post by rglullis » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #93

rglullis wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With this they can make a progressive sales tax. "Oh, if you buy meat according to the national average, you pay the standard tax. But if you are eating more than that, you pay double."

There are already ways to do this, you give everyone a “ration card” for 50% off up to N pounds of meat.

That would push up the price of meat for everyone.

(Really, HN? Voting down something that is 101 microeconomics to negative scores without one single argument?)

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#105

Post by forgot_user1234 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

NAV is an Extremely well run org.

I believe in the system and I believe Norwegian state will do the right thing

Case in point - look at the tech platform docs for NAVs tech teams - https://nais.io/

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#106

Post by californical » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

867-5309 wrote: post #56

ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please consult the official list for alternatives.” More likely a new way to tax stuff that the government does not like. Eating too much red-meat from methane-producing cows? Extra climate change tax for you!

this would arguably be a great thing

I’m a vegetarian because of environmental (and more recently, ethical) reasons. I’m an enormous advocate of reducing the quantity of animal products that the world uses.

This is definitely not a “great thing”. There are much less invasive ways to influence behavior and nudge consumers to consume fewer harmful products. Like simply using product-specific taxes or labeling requirements. Or targeting the producers directly.

We don’t need to increase government surveillance, ever.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#107

Post by croes » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

mateo1 wrote: post #29

People seem to suddenly forget that these transactions are already tracked and individually linked to you. Should we allow anyone to collect that data except democratically elected governments? What's the logic behind this?

What's the worst a store can do to you, what's the worst a government can do to you?

Don't make me confirm Godwin's law about democratically elected government.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#108

Post by jacooper » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

867-5309 wrote: post #56

ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please consult the official list for alternatives.” More likely a new way to tax stuff that the government does not like. Eating too much red-meat from methane-producing cows? Extra climate change tax for you!

this would arguably be a great thing

Ah yes, the meat people eat definitely has more impact than the oil Norway produces.

You don't get to dectiate what people eat, imagine the other side, you are not eating enough meat, we will tax vegetables more in your purchases.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#109

Post by hericium » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #75

monkeybutton wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or "you've reached your monthly quota of alcohol purchases". Which isn't far fetched at all! In parts of Canada, up into the 50s, you had to bring your permit booklet to buy alcohol from state operated stores where they recorded your purchases: https://www.tvo.org/article/buzzkillers-a-brief-history-of-t...

I mean, > Vinmonopolet (English: The Wine Monopoly), symbolized by Ⓥ and colloquially shortened to Polet, is a government-owned alcoholic beverage retailer and the only company allowed to sell beverages containing an alcohol content higher than 4.75% in Norway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinmonopolet

Sweden is similar - you can't buy a beer with > 3.5% alcohol. Subjectively, they improved the quality of these 2.1% / 3.5% beers. It was piss some 10 years ago.

Higher percentage, "normal" alcoholic products are sold in government-run Systembolaget[1]. And there's almost no cash in Sweden.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#110

Post by rhn_mk1 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

mateo1 wrote: post #29

People seem to suddenly forget that these transactions are already tracked and individually linked to you. Should we allow anyone to collect that data except democratically elected governments? What's the logic behind this?

Thankfully, you're wrong - cash still exists.