What a gas stove ban means for restaurants • Hacker News Board

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#101

Post by eric-hu » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #82

cthalupa wrote: post #6

I've got a Control Freak, probably the highest end induction cooktop available for a home chef, and is even used in 3 michelin star restaurants like Alinea. It's amazing for consistency, holding temperature, and a dozen other things. It's quite responsive in general! But I still reach for my Iwatani butane stove and copper saucepot sometimes. These are still significantly more responsive even than a top of the line i…

right now, there are thermal properties around materials like copper which will not work with induction that mean there are things that simply can't be done with them, and resistive electric is horribly non-responsive. As it happens, the latest installment of Technology Connections [1] does direct comparisons of the time required to boil a volume of water on various cooktop technologies. The winner was a cheap electr…

I think you’re off in your analogy. Parent comment is closer to the 0-60 time because of the responsiveness, and you’re referring to time to move a 1000 lbs mass to 60. When I see “responsive” in terms of cooking and gas, I think of wok cooking (mentioned in the article too) where 100k BTUs are needed for a few seconds at a time to combust atomized oil droplets flipped over the edge of the wok. Combusting that oil properly leaves behind the a small amount of highly flavorful residue that sets apart the best bbq and wok fired dishes.

You can’t get this with a stove that only heats the cooking vessel, even if it has the ability to boil water faster than the same gas stove.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#102

Post by jcranberry » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #4

This is such a foolish law, environmentally speaking. I totally understand doing this once we've phased out burning natural gas for electricity. But we are not there today, today we are burning natural gas for electricity. So using electricity instead of natural gas in your home is wasteful. And yes I'm well aware that induction stoves are a thing. But induction stoves of today cannot run all four burners and the sto…

I remember reading some studies and IIRC it turned out that overall power usage including energy transfer efficiency and grid leakage for gas stoves and induction was about the same.

One other issue with gas stoves which I believe some California gov agency recently discovered is that even when you're not using them they may contribute to methane gas leakage.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#103

Post by kelnos » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #82

cthalupa wrote: post #6

I've got a Control Freak, probably the highest end induction cooktop available for a home chef, and is even used in 3 michelin star restaurants like Alinea. It's amazing for consistency, holding temperature, and a dozen other things. It's quite responsive in general! But I still reach for my Iwatani butane stove and copper saucepot sometimes. These are still significantly more responsive even than a top of the line i…

right now, there are thermal properties around materials like copper which will not work with induction that mean there are things that simply can't be done with them, and resistive electric is horribly non-responsive. As it happens, the latest installment of Technology Connections [1] does direct comparisons of the time required to boil a volume of water on various cooktop technologies. The winner was a cheap electr…

> To be fair, that's not quite the same thing as what you're saying

That's an asterisk you can drive a truck through. "Not quite"? What you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with what the parent is saying.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#104

Post by hgomersall » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #16

teruakohatu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30 amp for the dryer plus 30 amp for the water heater plus 30 amp for the AC, Heat pump water heaters and heat pump air heaters solve that problem and save money. Heat pump dryers on the other hand are a bit rubbish (take a very long time to dry clothes, but they do save money).

Heat pump water heaters are also bad, I wanted to buy one and didn't because they are very slow to heat the water. Too slow to be useful for me. They are especially bad in northern climates since the incoming water is cold, and they put cold air in your house - which then has to be heated by the home heater. An A/C is already a heat pump.

Is this a theoretical analysis? My assessment is that they are already much better, particularly if combined with an efficient house and sufficient battery storage to use low demand electricity. The power output from an ASHP can exceed a typical gas boiler if that is desired.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#105

Post by buro9 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

martincollignon wrote: post #35

buro9 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I totally understand doing this once we've phased out burning natural gas for electricity I've been thinking about this in Europe. How to wean oneself off of gas. The big wins are electric generation, and those can be done within a reasonable timeframe by states with largely unilateral decision making. But the long tail... Domestic use of gas. That's hard. How does one ask an entire populace to rid themselves off o…

This is why we created Lun. Every gas boiler's consumption emits about 2tCO2 per year - and there are about 90 million buildings in Europe that could be heated using heat pumps instead, with huge benefits for energy efficiency and carbon emissions. As you said, it's a hard problem. Luckily, politicians and bureaucrats are passing more and more legislation that will force the fossil fuels out of heating over the next…

For where I live in London, ground heat pumps are infeasible and air heat pumps would produce too much noise and not be permitted under conservation area rules.

What most of the UK needs is an effective drop-in replacement to a combi boiler, ideally one that doesn't need a large water storage cylinder. It could even be a combination of a slow boiler (for radiators) and a fast water heating unit (for bath/shower/taps).

Any retrofit of air or ground heat pumps into Victorian terraces just wouldn't work or be acceptable.

The UK needs to replace millions of these style boilers https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory...

As yet no comparable electric version exists at similar price, size, capability. This is where a govt can incentivise innovation to both create what we need, and then help it be deployed (first with a stick like banning things, and second with a carrot like helping those in poverty get it for cheap/free).

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#106

Post by olivermarks » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

throwaway4aday wrote: post #89

hgomersall wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you used induction? My experience is that it's much more responsive than gas.

Yes, it turns on quickly but it also has to vary on and off to maintain the temperature which leads to it either running too cool part of the time or too hot. Gas allows you to set the exact temp you need and it makes a smooth, quick transition and then maintains it perfectly.

My experience of induction stoves is that they are v expensive and have a very short lifespan. Induction heaters to release fasteners on cars are excellent though

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#107

Post by spaetzleesser » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #84

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep... BP can cause a huge maritime catastrophe (deepwater horizon spill), but let's blame Johnny Average here for drinking soda by using a straw. The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oi...

>The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals you think that "the dirty industry" are just emitting carbon for the fun of it?

"you think that "the dirty industry" are just emitting carbon for the fun of it?"

Yes, for fun and profit.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#108

Post by wumpus » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #38

GaelFG wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So using electricity instead of natural gas in your home is wasteful." I (genuinely) wonder if what's true. I remember thinking the same things about electric car "how can burning fuel in a factory, storing it, send it thought line for kilometers and then store them in a car batteries and then feed the motor be more efficient than burning fuel directly in the motor" and was proven false. Assuming we aldready have th…

It isn't efficient exactly but it can make financial sense depending on the cost of electricity. Efficiency is not the only metric and needs to be balanced with other issues. An ice engine may be less efficient than a turbine but that does not mean you put a turbine in a pickup truck.

> but it can make financial sense depending on the cost of electricity.

Don't forget to price in carbon emissions and the cost of pollution.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#109

Post by mike00632 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #4

This is such a foolish law, environmentally speaking. I totally understand doing this once we've phased out burning natural gas for electricity. But we are not there today, today we are burning natural gas for electricity. So using electricity instead of natural gas in your home is wasteful. And yes I'm well aware that induction stoves are a thing. But induction stoves of today cannot run all four burners and the sto…

15% of all natural gas use is residential.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natur...

These laws are about removing the need for gas lines entirely.

I think that restaurants count as commercial so the impact would be even higher. It's nonsense to claim that these changes won't have an impact.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#110

Post by TurkTurkleton » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #84

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep... BP can cause a huge maritime catastrophe (deepwater horizon spill), but let's blame Johnny Average here for drinking soda by using a straw. The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oi...

>The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals you think that "the dirty industry" are just emitting carbon for the fun of it?

You think that "the dirty industry" will voluntarily work to reduce negative externalities if they aren't regulatorily required to do so and if doing so is less profitable than mounting a PR campaign to draw attention away from them would be?