Google cancelled a talk on caste bias • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#651

Post by kelnos » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 12:57 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #601

akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

>> Educating people like me about that would suddenly create the ability for them to identify a difference that they wouldn't have noticed before. This seemingly small insight goes miles toward explaining the current American obsession with racial and gender identity. Gender/racial/age discrimination are not surface-level obvious in America these days, which is why once people are told they're being victimized and di…

Wow, this is just all absurd.

> But if that's the case, you're lucky not to know, because the worst thing you can do is let a sense of victimization become a central part of your identity.

But this really takes the cake. I'm not sure what bizarre leap of logic has led you to believe that the only options are "rank ignorance" and "extremist crusader".

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#652

Post by hypertele-Xii » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 12:58 AM UTC

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #638

AYBABTME wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please abstain from ad-hominem.

Interesting that OP can attack whole classes of people from an obviously privileged point of view, yet a mild but directed criticism of his ignorance is considered off-limits.

Your comment simply adds nothing. "Do you even know how wrong your beliefs are?", without any further elaboration or commentary, is just pointless. Explain yourself and provide references and you'll accumulate upvotes instead.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#653

Post by devnull3 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:00 AM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #514

devnull3 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. In fact attrocities on brahmins is rarely discussed [1]. Infact his state TamilNadu there is a strong anti-brahminism sentiment in political sphere. This is one of the reason why lot of upper-caste men/women go outside India. [1] https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/the-brahmin-files-why-atro...

Doesn’t excuse any discriminatory behavior here in the States. Or, frankly, even in India.

I never said that. Just because Sundar is of certain caste does not mean he has explaining to do.

It's like holding any white British person to explain all the bad things British did in their colonies.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#654

Post by kelnos » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:01 AM UTC

whack wrote: post #559

gomoboo wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t this just relying on security through obscurity? The knowledge is already out there for anyone wishing to seek it. Why pretend it doesn’t exist? For what it’s worth, I am not of Indian descent.

Take a look at the brown-eye-blue-eye experiment that a teacher did with her students. Everyone already knew the color of their eye, but no one gave it much significance. But as soon as the teacher started talking about the socioeconomic-status associated with eye color, students immediately divided themselves and started fighting over eye color. Never underestimate people's ability to segregate themselves using what…

I don't think we should base DEI policy decisions on an uncontrolled experiment done 50 years ago on a handful of 10-year-olds.

I think you've also taken the wrong lesson from this: the teacher's point here was that most (all?) forms of identity-based discrimination are learned behaviors. And if a behavior can be learned, it can be unlearned.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#655

Post by hypertele-Xii » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #597

whack wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the brown-eye-blue-eye experiment that a teacher did with her students. Everyone already knew the color of their eye, but no one gave it much significance. But as soon as the teacher started talking about the socioeconomic-status associated with eye color, students immediately divided themselves and started fighting over eye color. Never underestimate people's ability to segregate themselves using what…

"as soon as the teacher started talking about the socioeconomic-status associated with eye color, students immediately divided themselves and started fighting over eye color" It wasn't the teacher talking about socioeconomic-status associated with eye color, but explicitly telling the children that blue-eyed kids were better than brown-eyed kids. So it wasn't just consciousness of differences, but explicitly telling…

> A ridiculous and meaningless distinction

Computer simulations have proven that completely arbitrary distinctions are still useful genetic indicators of fitness in evolution.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#656

Post by rajup » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

devnonymous wrote: post #406

thelit wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re a Dalit, you’d know. As I mention in the post, membership to a caste is granted by birth. If both your parents are Dalit, you’re a Dalit too. How do others know: it’s not obvious. Dalits either change their last name to something common enough to not have any caste indicator. They’d avoid any discussion on caste. So effectively, they hide but there are some who don’t and keep their last name. Still, not eve…

Note that there are other 'cues' as well that casteists use to identify your caste, such as the food you eat (veg/non-veg), the social rituals/ceremonies or religious practices you engage in. In fact, you'd see enough Brahmins (in the US!) wear the scared thread[1] and embrace the entire identity of being at the 'top' of the caste system that knowing that you are a non-brahmin is sufficient for them to treat you as a…

Wrong, I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka. Wearing a sacred thread has about as much relation to condoning/accepting caste discrimination as wearing a niqab has to terrorism, but these kinds of bigoted ignorant comments are exactly why Google was right in not allowing the talk to happen.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#657

Post by colechristensen » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

gomoboo wrote: post #534

akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Isn’t this just relying on security through obscurity? The knowledge is already out there for anyone wishing to seek it. Why pretend it doesn’t exist? For what it’s worth, I am not of Indian descent.

Because for many people, the division actually doesn't exist.

Artificial divisions between people only exist as long as people pay attention to them. If you're unable to categorize yourself or others it's really going to be quite hard to have tribal opinions about those divisions.

Eventually "support" for equality among division simply reenforces those divisions. The best way to rid yourselves of the remaining small minority of people sticking to hatred around those divisions is to forget about them and the next generation simply won't understand what they're upset about. Forgetting the division is the last step, not every division is in that phase yet, but many are approaching that territory.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#658

Post by Levitz » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #131

sumedh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents tell you your caste. You can also get a caste certificate from you local municipal office which helps you take advantage of some perks if you belong to a "lower" class. Generally you wont be able to figure the caste of someone but there are clues like skin color, fairer skin generally is "upper" caste, sometimes your surname also gives away your caste. Unfortunately some Indians specially from the "upper…

Caste is a great illustration of how arbitrary racial identities are.

At which point is this about race? Isn't this more like knighthood in the olden times?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#659

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:08 AM UTC

devnonymous wrote: post #399

okdood64 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey there! Thanks for writing this. One question I've always had is, how do you know you're Dalit if you were born outside of India? How do others? Especially, say, when meeting other Indians in some tech company in the US?

If you were born outside of India, it would be pretty much like any other national /racial identity -- inferred from family (based on family names for instance). Like mentioned in the GPs write-up: > Unlike race, it’s easier to hide your caste, especially in a new country. Many dalits change their official last name to something common enough that it’s hard to identify them.

Ah, like how in my home country, it’s a ‘well known fact’ that people lower on the economic ladder like to give their children foreign sounding names, whereas people that are well off give their children traditional, and even double traditional names.

Guess the country :)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#660

Post by kelnos » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:08 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #613

ajross wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an America-born white hippie, though... I have a hard time seeing an argument like that and not equating it with attempts to suppress discussion of racial equality issues here at home[1]. The fact that you don't experience discrimination doesn't mean that no one does. And you should know if people do, and why. Nothing gets better if the skeletons stay in the closet, basically. It's no different for caste awareness…

It's always the white folks who claim this. The often false assumption that people who are non-white must be being discriminated against and that being colorblind is not enough, etc., is just a new version of the "white man's burden." It's neocolonialism dressed up as empathy. Most people want to be treated as just... people . Not handled with kid gloves or lumped into a racial group and having all kinds of assumptio…

> So sure: Introduce new ways that people can feel like they've been discriminated against.

But this isn't "new" and isn't a "feeling". Caste-based discrimination is real among Indians. This is not even remotely new. And it's not a "feeling". It happens, and it's widespread.

> This white guilt

If you feel guilty, then maybe you should sit down and think about why. I'm a white dude. I don't feel guilty. I feel disappointed, though. Often outraged. But I personally haven't done anything to feel guilty about; I don't think that I am responsible for slavery in the US and hundreds of years of oppression, for example. But if I do do something to feel guilty about, I do my best to acknowledge my fault, and resolve to do better. I'm not sitting around all day wallowing in guilt over my privilege. That serves no one, and is just kinda stupid.

> where civil rights and equal rights were fought for, and won.

That's just not true. Civil rights and equal rights have been fought for over the span of centuries, certainly, but we're not done yet. That particular war is far from being over, and far from being won.