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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#561

Post by ajross »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #557
ajross wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an America-born white hippie, though... I have a hard time seeing an argument like that and not equating it with attempts to suppress discussion of racial equality issues here at home[1]. The fact that you don't experience discrimination doesn't mean that no one does. And you should know if people do, and why. Nothing gets better if the skeletons stay in the closet, basically. It's no different for caste awareness…

But I think the same argument can be applied here in the USA, too. Your point about "security through obscurity" makes sense; I wouldn't attempt to conceal the history and the current problems. But the strategy here today seems to be trying to force people to own a given racial identity: at least some people are demanding that white people should stand up to publicly renounce their privilege, etc. And I'm afraid that…

FWIW: I think you're conflating things. Teaching kids about slavery and segregation, and teaching older kids the enduring effects thereof (which are quantifiable!) isn't the same thing as forcing them to pick a racial identity or renounce their privilege or whatever, even if some of the same people want to do both.

You can oppose the latter without denying the former. From my perspective on the other side of this divide, I see a lot of people making arguments like yours as a way of shutting down discussion about inequality entirely. That's exactly what you claim not to support, right?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#562

Post by devnonymous »

skyde wrote: post #523
michaelmrose wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination it's a purely content free term. Discrimination is merely discrimination with the insertion of the word reverse having no additional meaning. It's normal for any system which creates an incentive to hire minorities to still be so biased in favor of white dudes that you are still much better off being a white dude. Basically for every minority that wouldn't have made it…

You are basically saying its ok for a white dude from a family of homeless to be doubly discriminated (1- because he does have money to go to college 2- because college reserve seat for non-white people) And you justify it because statistically if you take a random white people and a random black people the black person would deserve it more. While this is true this logic is morally wrong because you punish or reward…

> It's as absurd as saying there are not enough professional basketball player that are redhead so we should have quota of redhead regardless of skill level.

If the end goal is that after a number of generations we finally have the proportionate number of redhead basketball players that would have existed if we didn't discriminate against recruiting redhead players in the past, then no, the idea isn't absurd at all.

Note the keyword here is the end goal - of creating a equal and just basketball team... or society, if you reel in the ad absurdum.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#563

Post by akavi »

devnonymous wrote: post #546
akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

I've heard similar arguments being made about teaching CRT in school. Are you really saying ABCDs are so confused about their own identity that they'll cling on to n antiquated notion of a social hierarchy based on knowledge of the Vedas?

I think it's pretty normal as a human to attach oneself to various identity groups (An anodyne example being local sports teams), and the more you salience an identity, the more likely and more strongly individuals are to attach themselves to that identity.

It seems like that could in fact an issue with race-centric DEI training, at least per the one study I found at short notice[0]. But that needs to be weighed against the potential benefits and the fact that race relations are a significant issue across America society regardless of whether we address it explicitly or not.

With caste discrimination, the issue currently exists within a very small slice of American society (immigrants born in India). So even a small negative effect across the rest of American society would wipe out even the most significant improvements in that slice.

[0]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550618780728

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#564

Post by auganov »

Extremely dishonest article. Tries very hard to trick people in believing "Hindu nationalists" didn't like her talk because they're great fans of the caste system. Yet it's common knowledge they're against the very idea of caste.

> sites and organizations that have targeted academics in the United States and Canada who are critical of Hindu nationalism or caste hierarchy.

Whatever the real grievance is, the article definitely doesn't talk about it. Presumably people felt her activism actually strengthens the caste system/division rather than combats it.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#565

Post by seoaeu »

notacoward wrote: post #392
seoaeu wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t enough to focus criticism against a specific individual or narrow group. You also have to consider whether the criticism is justified or echos specific stereotypes For instance, there’s many who feel that some of the criticism against Barack Obama was racist. Not because it isn’t ok to criticize a US president but because prior presidents hadn’t been treated similarly/held to the same standard

What if someone has consistently criticized other people or governments for comparable behavior? In my experience, it makes absolutely no difference. Even international organizations with rock-solid records of speaking out all over the world get the same treatment. What's the excuse then? It's just guilt by association, only it's not even real association, from people who absolutely should know better.

Not sure whether you meant to respond to a different comment (mine didn’t say anything about “excuses”), but assuming this was meant as a reply…

You clearly have one/several specific organizations in mind, but I’ll point out that my comment was about the content of criticism rather than the track record of the group making it. Track record gives a hint of whether someone might be acting in bad faith, but it is perfectly possible for someone to usually offer fair assessments but let their prejudices slip though with regards to members of one minority group or another. In fact, some would argue that everyone has such blind spots and that they can only be mitigated, but never eliminated.

Not sure I understand your point about guilt by association, but if you are arguing that using the same talking points as a known racist shouldn’t make others suspect you of being a racist… then I think we’re probably going to disagree.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#566

Post by dsr_ »

beebmam wrote: post #554
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US caste system absolutely exists; it’s called old money. And old money communities absolutely limit occupations and opportunities based on this.

That's not a caste system. Please read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste

It's a class system, but nearly all Americans insist that they are middle-class: upper middle class, lower middle class, but definitely middle-class.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/middle-class.asp

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#567

Post by AussieWog93 »

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

>Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative action system for access to education and government jobs.

I've heard some pretty horrible stories about this in particular; like Brahmin kids being legally adopted into Sudra families in order to get into a reserved position at a State University, and rich kids with private tutors getting given further advantage over poor kids doing all the work themselves because they happen to be of a lower caste.

Just like in every other country, affirmative action does nothing but help members of a specific group who are already advantaged.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#568

Post by screye »

Every couple of months an article about caste is posted on HN. The article and the reactions are always the same.

* Shallow allusions to how caste dynamics = white-black dynamics in the US

* Any one in opposition = caste supremacist = hindu nationalism

* Belief that caste dynamics in the US = caste dynamics in rural India

I am going to buck my own trend of writing explanations about how western interpretations of issues faced by foreign civilizations are wrong. I will instead link to older comments [1] I have written before:

Choice quotes:

> Caste related pieces in the western press miss the entire context around 1st-world-discrimination among Indians. It annoys me to no end, because discrimination is still a major problem in certain communities. But, the western media has cast it onto their agonizingly shallow concept of privilege and bigotry.

> caste is not caste anymore. The nature of internal sharding, class division, and discrimination in the diaspora has its own patterns that don't abide by caste lines.

I have some strong suspicions on why caste has suddenly become a major issue in California politics over the last decade. I know better than to talk about on a pseudo-anonymous account.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=fal...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#569

Post by s1artibartfast »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #545
s1artibartfast wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who thinks the USA has a caste system doesn't understand what a caste system is. People are not defined or restricted based on the occupations of their parents. Class mobility is celebrated, so much so that the successful often play-up any humble origins in their families.

The US caste system absolutely exists; it’s called old money. And old money communities absolutely limit occupations and opportunities based on this.

I have never been asked to put my parents occupations or net worth on a resume, or been asked it in an interview.
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