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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#541

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

> Others said people from marginalized castes lack the education to properly interpret Hindu scriptures around castes.

"If you're one of them, you're too ignorant to understand why we're right". Absolutely repulsive.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#542
I’ve got this impression that all these diversity and equality programs employed by large American corporations are annoying to some and lame generally because they are astoundingly myopic.

Like, they do a vastly simplified, explain-like-I’m-five take on these issues (blah blah white male middle- and upper-class are evil type of thing) and tackle it with full ineptitude of five-year-olds.

I think a lot of people benefit from such approach.

First, hordes of people are generating busywork and you don’t really need mad skills or even basic competence to be doing it.

A lot of busywork paints a picture of the company press and shareholders will love.

Meanwhile, all the bullies keep on bullying.

There’s this culture where you will be treated better or worse based on the color of your badge. Race/religion/gender are off-limits, but discriminatory employee-contractor dynamics are blessed!

There’s this other bit of corporate culture that flew under the radar of any and all equality/diversity effort where managers of Indian origin would treat their also-Indian reports like shit because the poor schmucks happen to be of a lower caste. They would also make an effort to halt their career progress.

Those same managers would treat their overseas office teammates (in Poland) as if they were below the lowest caste possible.

Speaking about companies that have offices in both USA and, say, Eastern Europe, the Eastern Wuropean teammates are often treated as second-class people. They don’t get to participate in any project discussions of importance, presumably because those discussions happen informally, at the watercooler, in the US office, and should be content with all decisions handed down, like it or not.

I’m seeing the same kind of attitude starts happening now with onsite/WFH workers: since you don’t see the latter ones face to face, they are not quite real people.

Oh, and if you want to see a full-fledged rampant racism and supremacism, you should try working for a Korean company as a worker of their European branch office.

But apparently such issues are way too complex to be actually worked on by your off-the-shelf diversity and equality teams, for whom the white/nonwhite and male/female divide is the upper limit of comprehension.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually you know someone's caste from their last name. I am someone who was not given a caste-based last name because my parents were influenced by a regional movement against caste. (I didn't even have a last name to begin with but eventually added a non caste-based one to avoid visa issues.) Whenever I traveled by train and chatted up with a co-passenger, almost surely they would ask my name and would never be sati…

So why people (specifically immigrants in other countries) just do not change their last name to ones associated with higher caste?

The main benefit of caste comes from 2nd and 3rd degree connections from your family. Simply changing your name won't help you with that.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it were that easy. First of all lying like that is near impossible unless you know every single thing done in a Brahmin household, you'll be caught eventually. In a workplace setting, you might be boycotted but if this were in India, you have a high chance of getting murdered brutally. Dalits get killed for just riding a horse, walking through upper caste residential streets and many normal things. In this sca…

The parent comment died while I typed my response, so I'm just throwing it here to elaborate on your comment: I'm not Indian, but I read a lot about this when the Cisco stuff came out. The gist that I picked up from interviews with Indians dealing with this was that there is A LOT of cultural background that you'd be very unlikely to know if you hadn't grown up in a certain caste. A (likely shitty) analogy: You can l…

Shiboleths

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

Anyone who thinks the USA has a caste system doesn't understand what a caste system is. People are not defined or restricted based on the occupations of their parents. Class mobility is celebrated, so much so that the successful often play-up any humble origins in their families.

The US caste system absolutely exists; it’s called old money. And old money communities absolutely limit occupations and opportunities based on this.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#546
post #502

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

I've heard similar arguments being made about teaching CRT in school. Are you really saying ABCDs are so confused about their own identity that they'll cling on to n antiquated notion of a social hierarchy based on knowledge of the Vedas?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Director-Level in Engineering/QA/Quality Engineering. I currently lead a team where our ratio of Female Indian women is higher than any other engineering group at the company. Every Quality Engineering team I have been apart of has had a higher ratio of females, but not necessarily of any specific background. My N=1 experience is that this can be related, but not always directly about discrimination or sexism.…

> Every Quality Engineering team I have been apart of had had a higher ratio of females Positive discrimination is also discrimination, why not look for the same ratio as the job market has? Over hiring from an underepresented group necessarily means lowering the competence, unless you purposely interview a disproportionate number of individuals from the underepresented group, is this what you have done? Edit: needin…

There's nothing on the GP about positive discrimination.

If you hire based only on competence, you will probably get more people that suffer discrimination than the average. The stronger the discrimination, the higher the odds.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#548
post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever get an offhanded comment from another co-worker (indian) that says something like, yeah I don't know about this guy. What if THAT was him thinking about the entire CASTES thing!?!?!?! I mean that's often enough to pass up entire people

So would that co-worker be able to guess the caste of the candidate during a 30minute phone interview ?

Casted are guessable simply by seeing someone’s name.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#549
post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

American caste is just money though.

and skin color, gender, race or sexuality based on the local politics/religion.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#550
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Um, no. The only division it would sow would be when you notice your Indian-born manager is discriminating against your Indian-born co-worker. The only people who really want to stop awareness of this are people like that manager.

A full video of a talk by Soundararajan in reaction to Google's cancelation was published to YouTube, link below.

A few things that I found poignant in this talk:

One in four people in the world live within a caste system.

Soundararajan's father only admitted his dalit status to her in his late 70s.

The reservation system in India is the earliest civil rights initiative, predating the movement in the U.S.

The reservation system has expanded from its original role in university admissions to encompass reserved seats in parliament and corporate hiring.

The final question in the talk was from a "closeted" dalit worker at Google who was terrified that she would be outed.

As much as we hope that the caste system has no bearing in U.S. hiring, we must acknowledge that its effects are present.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xykx777qZM

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