Google cancelled a talk on caste bias • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#531

Post by golemiprague » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:01 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #247

lexapro wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be more women in QA in general. Genuinely asking: Is this also sexism?

> Genuinely asking: Is this also sexism? One way to look at it is that the disparity may be a symptom of complicated cultural biases, and we may not know the specific reasons. Since there’s nothing gender or sex related to doing the job of QA, then if the disparity actually is measurable and widespread, it does reveal cultural bias. This is currently true for nurses and for elementary school teachers in the US, for e…

How do you know it is "cultural bias" and even if it is why do you think it is a problem? It could be that men and women have natural different disposition to work in certain fields, it might be that even in fields where it is balanced it is the "cultural bias" that make it balanced rather than the natural disposition. I don't understand how something like that can even be proved, how do you control for all the parameters? I also don't understand why we should strive for balance? what is wrong with each group, whether grouped by sex or race or age or whatever else being specialised in different fields on average?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#532

Post by skyde » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:01 PM UTC

wumpus wrote: post #522

skyde wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is "affirmative action" is just reverse discrimination and this is why it bring further division. Because people from both sides now, no longer feel reward is based on merit alone anymore. If there is another solution than "affirmative action" this might not be divisive.

> The problem is "affirmative action" is just reverse discrimination Have you ever noticed that this opinion isn't the only one out there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins

is there other form of affirmative action that are not : - just a type of quota to give preferential treatment to a group of people not because of merit but simply as a way to increase diversity for some arbitrary measurement (gender, race ...)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#533

Post by cuteboy19 » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:03 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #529

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

American caste is just money though.

That's not what caste is. Caste is a value assigned to you at birth that you cannot change no matter what you do. It's similar to race but stupider

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#534

Post by gomoboo » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

akavi wrote: post #502

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Isn’t this just relying on security through obscurity? The knowledge is already out there for anyone wishing to seek it. Why pretend it doesn’t exist?

For what it’s worth, I am not of Indian descent.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#535

Post by Johnny555 » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #529

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

American caste is just money though.

It's money and everything that comes along with it - social status, health (both because of access to healthcare, but being able to afford a healthy lifestyle), education, safer interactions with law enforcement, job prospects and advancement, etc. If you're born poor, it's very hard to break out of that. It's not literally impossible like changing caste is, but it's very difficult.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#536

Post by beebmam » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

I'm not Indian, I don't think there's a caste system for me. If people discriminate against me for not being Indian and thereby not having a caste, then I hope they get brutally fired and ridiculed, and their wealth is dispossessed.

We should be treating people as individuals, not collectives. Anything less is profoundly immoral.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#537

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #529

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

American caste is just money though.

Money and education.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#538

Post by skyde » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #530

skyde wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be fair If in United States, I met/interview someone from India. I would have no idea which caste they are, so I don't see how I can discriminate one caste over another :)

Ever get an offhanded comment from another co-worker (indian) that says something like, yeah I don't know about this guy. What if THAT was him thinking about the entire CASTES thing!?!?!?! I mean that's often enough to pass up entire people

So would that co-worker be able to guess the caste of the candidate during a 30minute phone interview ?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#539

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:06 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

Anyone who thinks the USA has a caste system doesn't understand what a caste system is. People are not defined or restricted based on the occupations of their parents.

Class mobility is celebrated, so much so that the successful often play-up any humble origins in their families.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#540

Post by wumpus » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

skyde wrote: post #532

wumpus wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is "affirmative action" is just reverse discrimination Have you ever noticed that this opinion isn't the only one out there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Origins

is there other form of affirmative action that are not : - just a type of quota to give preferential treatment to a group of people not because of merit but simply as a way to increase diversity for some arbitrary measurement (gender, race ...)

Yes, it's right there in the link I posted.