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In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

washingtonpost.com

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Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#181
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay buddy. I’m sure all the people In prison, not even jail, for weed related non violent issues are somehow hurting people. Your toxic world view is a neoliberals elitist status quo wet dream. Nothing more.

Only 92 people were sentenced for marijuana possession in the federal system in 2017, out of a total of nearly 20,000 drug convictions. That's about 0.5% 0. https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu...

Should be much higher for the states. I can't find numbers for that, though, only drugs in general.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#182

I feel that there are a lot of concerns in these comments that come mostly out of misconceptions about the broader complexity of police oversight and professional standards and the way this kind of system integrates into it. I serve as part of the police oversight system in a major city and would love to consider a program like this, which I think would tend to actually mitigate many of the problems people are raisin…

"Police unions generally favor more direct feedback mechanisms because they allow for intervention in problems before they reach the stage of a lawsuit. From my experience working with direct feedback programs officer support for this concept is probably surprisingly high for that reason - better to have a contemporary, written negative review than a months after the fact IA investigation." You're in oversight, so a…

That kind of thing is absolutely routine and police unions are almost certainly the single greatest obstacle to improved policing in the US. But the way things are right now the police unions are tremendously powerful, and so reform efforts have to cooperate with them and find common interests. Shortening the cycle time from an alleged violation happening to discipline being imposed or not is one of those common interests. Whatever my feelings might be, complaining about the unions isn't really conducive to the type of work I'm trying to do. I'm a political appointee (so I have and express my own opinions), but I serve as just one part of a broader system that requires cooperation between parties. I can only speak to that system (one of many different efforts towards more just policing), but it happens to be the one that is producing programs like the one the article covers.

Police reform is inherently political, and so you ought to take everything with a grain of salt. But it's important to understand the context: direct feedback is nothing new and basically everyone (including the unions) agree that we need more of it. At the same time, the impact that direct feedback will have is limited because performance and discipline is not generally "data-based" in any meaningful sense and the unions (to some extent reasonably given the valid concerns around automation and employment issues) will generally be opposed to efforts to change that. So the bad news is that this program is not some silver bullet that will fix policing, just one of many small steps.

On the flip side, the reason that I commented on much of this discussion being based on misconceptions is because of the huge number of comments pointing out edge case issues or potential perverse incentives. It's vanishingly unlikely in my mind that any of these will materialize because of the critical context that I'm trying to share: first that police behavior is very resistant to any change at all and there are powerful institutional forces against things like increased leniency as a result of this program (although it's not at all clear that this is really a good thing), and second that the downsides of this type of program in terms of bias and unreliable information are already fairly well understood because the program is not really new but an expansion of a decades old effort.

The irony is that I am not intending to say that this program is good because police departments are effective, although maybe that's how I came across. I intend to say that this program is good because police departments are extremely resistant to change and have no problem throwing out data that runs counter to their interests, so this type of data collection can only really help to validate concerns from oversight and professional standards personnel.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#183
post #178

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

It’s called market competition. Why can’t neighborhoods vote every year whose contract to renew? Police agencies could compete.

>Why can’t neighborhoods vote every year whose contract to renew?

Because privatization like that is not ideologically compatible with a lot of people.

IMO the "basic patrol work", "standing around to dissuade anyone from trying anything" and "professional witness" duties that cops fulfill could be contracted out to private security the same way we subcontract out EMS. I'm more hesitant to contract out the investigative bits.

Edit: And before any dolts show up to call me the L word I would just like to make it clear I don't advocate for this out of some love for privatization. I think that getting cops off the government "team" is the most tractable path we have to a solving a lot of the problems we have holding them accountable.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Police unions generally favor more direct feedback mechanisms because they allow for intervention in problems before they reach the stage of a lawsuit. From my experience working with direct feedback programs officer support for this concept is probably surprisingly high for that reason - better to have a contemporary, written negative review than a months after the fact IA investigation." You're in oversight, so a…

That kind of thing is absolutely routine and police unions are almost certainly the single greatest obstacle to improved policing in the US. But the way things are right now the police unions are tremendously powerful, and so reform efforts have to cooperate with them and find common interests. Shortening the cycle time from an alleged violation happening to discipline being imposed or not is one of those common inte…

> That kind of thing is absolutely routine and police unions are almost certainly the single greatest obstacle to improved policing in the US.

I always find it interesting that police unions are generally portrayed as bad while non-police unions are generally portrayed as good. Or, vice versa.

(I realize that you didn't make statements about unions in general, only a strong statement that the presence of a large and largely independent collection of unions is a hindrance to improving one part of public life).

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#185
post #178

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

It’s called market competition. Why can’t neighborhoods vote every year whose contract to renew? Police agencies could compete.

Municipalities already vote to put people in charge, who then negotiate the contracts. However, the police unions are very good at negotiating a contract that gives them the maximal amount of latitude that they can negotiate. Which is fine, but when the Democratic party _and_ the Republican party run candidates who do not push back against police unions (primarily because the police unions fundraise for them), how does a "market" make this any better?

There is not an idle set of police officers just waiting around to bid lower and win a new contract. That's not how a union works, and I doubt that any police officer would willingly give up the arbitration clauses that allow them to keep their jobs.

If your response is "just privatize it", I'm sorry but you're not being realistic.

The problem is that the Democratic party is not interested in pushing back against police unions. There are no elected officials that are interested in pushing back against police unions because they are a strong constituency that can make or break a campaign. There are very few politicians who go against the police and still win their elections.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the purpose of the fine isn’t the money, it’s getting you to be more safe. If they can achieve that with a friendly chat then isn’t that better for everyone?

No. If he always chats with a Chris, but always tickets a Rene, that isn't better for everyone.

We have discretion build into our society for a reason. Judges, juries, police, all exercise discretion.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If he always chats with a Chris, but always tickets a Rene, that isn't better for everyone.

We have discretion build into our society for a reason. Judges, juries, police, all exercise discretion.

I think perhaps we're finding that the efficiencies we build into a system are vulnerabilities abused by unfriendly actors.

If I'm going to be treated as second class, you had better be, too.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#188
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s called market competition. Why can’t neighborhoods vote every year whose contract to renew? Police agencies could compete.

Municipalities already vote to put people in charge, who then negotiate the contracts. However, the police unions are very good at negotiating a contract that gives them the maximal amount of latitude that they can negotiate. Which is fine, but when the Democratic party _and_ the Republican party run candidates who do not push back against police unions (primarily because the police unions fundraise for them), how do…

It isn’t about bidding lower. It is about innovating and being more effective. Perhaps they can get to know the locals, do pre-emptive work like Canadians, build goodwill… perhaps they can innovate on their techniques for taking down perps, use pepper spray rather than guns, or perhaps they can use bodycams and document everything. Private competition produces far better products and services than when schools and police face no market competition.

At least the public should make more police work like meter-maids, carry no guns and just issue citations for dog poop or barbecuing without a license. Why come armed to the teeth when Barbecue Becky calls?

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#189

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

For David Simon fans, there's a new mini-series called "We Own This City" that also covers a similar situation in Baltimore.

Highly recommended, albeit a short spiritual successor to "The Wire."

https://www.hbo.com/we-own-this-city

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have discretion build into our society for a reason. Judges, juries, police, all exercise discretion.

I think perhaps we're finding that the efficiencies we build into a system are vulnerabilities abused by unfriendly actors. If I'm going to be treated as second class, you had better be, too.

It's not about efficiency - it's about justice. If you're against discretion then you're against basics of our society like trial by jury.

And if you can't trust these people to use discretion sensibly and fairly then you shouldn't be trusting them to do anything.

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