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In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

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Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#171
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It’s kind like human rights - the majority of people who are at risk of having them infringed are unpleasant or unsympathetic characters. I’d argue a cliché “upstanding law-abiding citizen” type doesn’t generally have that much to fear from a police interaction. They are generally being dealt with on a presumption of good faith, and have at least some access to leverage and ability to push back against unfair tr…

> It’s kind like human rights - the majority of people who are at risk of having them infringed are unpleasant or unsympathetic characters. I think some people have a view of "human rights" that fixates on and elevates "unpleasant or unsympathetic characters" but I don't think it's intrinsic to the concept of human rights. > I’d argue a cliché “upstanding law-abiding citizen” type doesn’t generally have that much to…

I don't think it's intrinsic to the concept of human rights

Nobody said it was. But it is almost definitionally true that the people most at risk of having their individual or human rights infringed are those people who are subject to the most forceful remedies of the state. And these are, by and large, not people for whom it is easy to have sympathy.

Illuminating of what exactly that would make their view more "important" (as stated above) than the views of law abiding citizens?

It is easy to treat a good and compliant person well; observing someone do this tells us little. It is harder to treat someone “bad” well, so seeing this happen can give us greater confidence that people in positions of power are treating others equally, free from prejudice. It’s tells us more, and thus is more important.

I think if you break it down more granularly, you'll see that what police interactions vary more within, for example, ethnic groups, than between ethnic groups, based on characteristics such as past criminal history, etc.

You might; I can’t say. It doesn’t ameliorate unequal treatment on the basis of other characteristics, regardless.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#172
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much, yeah. I'm acknowledging that it is possible the person with numerous DUIs is an alcoholic and that, once drunk, the intent necessary for a knowing crime is no longer really there. The logic of 'chose to get drunk so chose the consequences' doesn't work if the person has a disease causing them to continuously drink.

Recognizing the root cause doesn't remove choice or blame. If we follow your logic consistently, then none of us are ultimately responsible for anything we do because of determinism. Things like that should only really be a factor in choosing sentencing and rehabilitation.

>Recognizing the root cause doesn't remove choice or blame.

That's not my logic.

If you have a disease that causes an involuntary action, that removes choice.

I could extend that - the more something slides towards coercion, the less choice there is. Rather than a complete removal, a person's punishment should be evaluated in light of the circumstances in which they act.

>Things like that should only really be a factor in choosing sentencing and rehabilitation.

That's kinda what I'm talking about - a sentence of being known as a scumbag.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but giving them metrics won't fix that. Even forcing them to cite the metrics in their decisions won't force a culture change. And even if you could somehow convince/force them to earnestly intend to be data-driven, they'd probably still fail. In ostensibly data-driven workplaces, the decision makers pick and choose which metrics to consider, influence how those metrics are measured, determine which exceptions…

Right, but you can't simultaneously say that pursuit of the metrics will lead the organization away from its holistic goals while also saying that managers will ignore what the metrics are telling them by interpreting them to confirm whatever they wanted to begin with. Something can't be both inert and poisonous.

I didn't say anything about metrics leading police away from the holistic goals of police. I said police are already disconnected from those goals, and introducing them to the art of justifying anything you want with data isn't going to change this. If anything, it will only lend an air of scientific authority to their wholly unscientific decision making processes.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe the wife beater is fucked in the head because he got brain damage as a kid from his dad beating him. I don't really care though, I don't have a problem classifying him as a scumbag. Cycles of abuse can be broken, and addictions can be kicked (and usually, avoided in the first place. Unlike getting beaten by your dad.)

Yeah, if the person is intellectually disabled and that disability causes them to act in a certain way then I don't really consider them a scumbag either. Their parents, maybe, or whoever is supposed to be supervising them. Look, if you're a person who enjoys harming others, is incredibly lazy and chooses theft or destruction over actively working in your community when you have the opportunity to do so then you're m…

> Yeah, if the person is intellectually disabled and that disability causes them to act in a certain way then I don't really consider them a scumbag either.

That's easy to claim online talking about abstract scenarios, but if you saw a man beat his wife in public I think you'd be more than willing to make a snap judgement about that man's moral character, and wouldn't stop to think "well maybe he's not a scumbag because..."

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#175

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

If the DA really knows who the bad cops are, the DA should prosecute them. DAs blaming cops are hoping that the public don't realize the DAs themselves are dropping the ball and letting cops get away with it.

DAs who do that get recalled

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#176

I feel that there are a lot of concerns in these comments that come mostly out of misconceptions about the broader complexity of police oversight and professional standards and the way this kind of system integrates into it. I serve as part of the police oversight system in a major city and would love to consider a program like this, which I think would tend to actually mitigate many of the problems people are raisin…

"Police unions generally favor more direct feedback mechanisms because they allow for intervention in problems before they reach the stage of a lawsuit. From my experience working with direct feedback programs officer support for this concept is probably surprisingly high for that reason - better to have a contemporary, written negative review than a months after the fact IA investigation."

You're in oversight, so a union could track down your comment and use it to impugn any act you take as biased. Excuse me if I take with a grain of salt your conclusory remark that all the other comments on here are "mostly" misconceptions.

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Do you see stuff like this as one-off or inherent to the current way police unions work in America? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8536863/Head-NYPD-u...

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the DA really knows who the bad cops are, the DA should prosecute them. DAs blaming cops are hoping that the public don't realize the DAs themselves are dropping the ball and letting cops get away with it.

DAs who do that get recalled

Indeed. In free and democratic societies, the electorate are the root of these problems.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#178

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

It’s called market competition. Why can’t neighborhoods vote every year whose contract to renew? Police agencies could compete.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if the person is intellectually disabled and that disability causes them to act in a certain way then I don't really consider them a scumbag either. Their parents, maybe, or whoever is supposed to be supervising them. Look, if you're a person who enjoys harming others, is incredibly lazy and chooses theft or destruction over actively working in your community when you have the opportunity to do so then you're m…

> Yeah, if the person is intellectually disabled and that disability causes them to act in a certain way then I don't really consider them a scumbag either. That's easy to claim online talking about abstract scenarios, but if you saw a man beat his wife in public I think you'd be more than willing to make a snap judgement about that man's moral character, and wouldn't stop to think "well maybe he's not a scumbag beca…

Sure, I don't disagree. I snap to judgment more often than I'd like to.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#180
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> citizens - ummm the folks who actually pay for police salaries I was always curious about how true this statement actually is. I understand that the state runs primarily on money from taxes, but what part of that is actually coming from local citizens pockets? I imagine there are places where most money comes from tourism or goods exports.

You don't typically pay your money on a tour to the state. You pay it to a hotel, an amusement park, etc who then pays it to the state instead of employees.

Yes, but my point still stands. The money that ends up with the state didn't originate from a local.
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