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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#391

Post by naravara »

seoaeu wrote: post #369
naravara wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't used to, but after seeing how noxious communities get when you normalize the kinds of reflexive confrontationalism and assumptions of bad faith you find online I changed my tune. I haven't seen a single place improve once people start treating and talking about structural discrimination as some sort of original sin that individuals need to repent and seek absolution for. It's generally much more useful to fo…

Useful to whom? Presumably not the people who want structural changes

Why would you presume that?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#392

Post by notacoward »

seoaeu wrote: post #344
notacoward wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> failure to differentiate Israel (the state and government) with Judaism (the religion) with Jew/Hebrew (the ethnicity) That has not been my experience. AFAICT even people who are extremely careful and specific about criticizing the state of Israel - even more specifically the IDF or a political party within Israel responsible for a particular act - still get tarred with the "anti-Semitic" brush. Jewish people have…

It isn’t enough to focus criticism against a specific individual or narrow group. You also have to consider whether the criticism is justified or echos specific stereotypes For instance, there’s many who feel that some of the criticism against Barack Obama was racist. Not because it isn’t ok to criticize a US president but because prior presidents hadn’t been treated similarly/held to the same standard

What if someone has consistently criticized other people or governments for comparable behavior? In my experience, it makes absolutely no difference. Even international organizations with rock-solid records of speaking out all over the world get the same treatment. What's the excuse then? It's just guilt by association, only it's not even real association, from people who absolutely should know better.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#393

Post by buttercraft »

zionic wrote: post #104
lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

>The role of caste within the US is a super important conversation to have, and every resident of the US is entitled to participate, but there are a lot of people with a vested interest in shutting it down and the tools to do so. I don't believe HN's current moderation policies/leadership make this the place to have that conversation though. Participate in good faith all you want, you'll still earn a ban/warning for…

Show us an example of a good faith argument that earned a ban.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#394

Post by alex_smart »

hef19898 wrote: post #387
alex_smart wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If caste might be at play Again, how is that determined? Do you assume that a caste angle might be at play every time the manager is upper caste and the employee's of lower caste? Do you wait for the manager to be stupid enough to outright utter a casteist slur at the workplace?

As a manager, if you see one of your directs singeling out one of his emoloyees, it is your job to find out why. That includes talking to the employee. And because caste is so hard to grasp for non-Indians talks like the one cancelled by Google are so important. Maybe I have a different view on that, we German's are quite sensitive when it comes to anti-semitism. And as woth caste, if religion is never openly discuss…

>As a manager, if you see one of your directs singeling out one of his emoloyees, it is your job to find out why

You are just saying that it is the job of the super-manager to find out why without answering how the job is supposed to be carried out. The manager says he is acting against the employee because of their lack of performance or insubordination. The employee says the manager is discriminating against them based on caste. You're the super-manager, what do you do?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#395

Post by seoaeu »

photochemsyn wrote: post #382
throwntoday wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because the Israeli government is highly repressive towards the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza, and treats non-Jews as second-class citizens within Israel proper, does not mean that all Jews around the world share this behavior. This is a rather hilarious statement as almost no one believes that. You are committing the same fallacy that you repudiated. Anyway inference is kind of predicated o…

If Israel (and Saudi Arabia) were to adopt American democratic norms than all members of their population (by which I mean, populations under their military control) would have a right to vote in national elections, yes? So everyone in the West Bank and Gaza would get one vote, same as everyone in Israel proper, for electing members to the national legislative body. Perhaps some degree of federation (as with American…

> American democratic norms [meaning] all members of their population (by which I mean, populations under their military control) would have a right to vote in national elections

Since when can non-citizens vote in US national elections? Let alone people living in Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever else is/was under US military control.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#396

Post by smegsicle »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18

Is there a Wikipedia list of obscure 'race'-isms? I find reading about other cultures or other time period's biases to be informative and wonder what the common elements might be. Off the top of my head, issues I can think of where an outsider may be oblivious between the "sides" are: Indian caste Japanese Barukumin caste Protestant/Catholic in Europe Jewish people in Europe/US/USSR English Class System, or Southern/…

balkans / other balkans

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#397

Post by hef19898 »

medler wrote: post #300
jjaaammmmy wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this NPR podcast was pretty insightful about this issue https://www.npr.org/transcripts/915299467

That NPR story was great, thanks. The transcript is definitely worth reading for anyone curious about this. In a nutshell, people can sometimes tell by your last name, and if they can’t, they will ask you questions about your background, such as what town and/or neighborhood your family is from, until they figure it out. In one example in the story, a guy is outed as a Dalit by a coworker who knew him from college.

Outing a co-worker is pretty mean. And asking all kinda of private background questions in order to judge someone's social standing and treat them accordingly is intrusive and bigotted. As usual, racists are more often than not mean bigots.

It is somewhat different if you grew up in the caste system, and the discriminatory behaviour was just ingrained. If you start falling back to that based on, e.g., surname it's hard to avoid. Actively seeking information you can use to treat people like shit is a different level all together!

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#398

Post by thelit »

okdood64 wrote: post #377
thelit wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101

Hey there! Thanks for writing this. One question I've always had is, how do you know you're Dalit if you were born outside of India? How do others? Especially, say, when meeting other Indians in some tech company in the US?

If you’re a Dalit, you’d know. As I mention in the post, membership to a caste is granted by birth. If both your parents are Dalit, you’re a Dalit too.

How do others know: it’s not obvious. Dalits either change their last name to something common enough to not have any caste indicator. They’d avoid any discussion on caste. So effectively, they hide but there are some who don’t and keep their last name. Still, not every other Indian could tell, but a more caste conscious Indian who belongs to the same region can tell. On top of it, it’s common among Indians to just plainly ask other what their caste is.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#399

Post by devnonymous »

okdood64 wrote: post #377
thelit wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101

Hey there! Thanks for writing this. One question I've always had is, how do you know you're Dalit if you were born outside of India? How do others? Especially, say, when meeting other Indians in some tech company in the US?

If you were born outside of India, it would be pretty much like any other national /racial identity -- inferred from family (based on family names for instance). Like mentioned in the GPs write-up:

> Unlike race, it’s easier to hide your caste, especially in a new country. Many dalits change their official last name to something common enough that it’s hard to identify them.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#400

Post by burrows »

vijaybritto wrote: post #345
burrows wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since there’s nothing gender or sex related to doing the job of QA, How do you know this to be true? > cultural bias What definition are you using for this term?

>> How do you know this to be true? Goto LinkedIn and search for QA engineers in Indian cities. I think that should be a very good proof for you

Searching LinkedIn will show me that “there’s nothing gender or sex related to doing the job of QA”?
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