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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#161

Post by bombcar »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #121
411111111111111 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be real here. The talk was likely scheduled by a moral individual which thought the topic important. Then controversy began and middle management was made aware to this. Guess what happened next? It's not that Google gave up. They were never going to allow it to begin with and the organizer likely just hoped it would fly under the radar.

Google has a track record of pandering to the mob. Has nothing to do with middle management.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks that if tomorrow most everyone woke up with a position against anything Google currently "stands" for that they wouldn't immediately flip to be in line with it is kidding themselves.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#162

Post by maskil »

mrcartmeneses wrote: post #95
naravara wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult conversation you'd rather not have? The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciousl…

Would you dismiss Martin Luther King as an “activist”? But your point is in some ways valid, as it’s important to be able to see Israel through the lens of colonialism and to show that the state’s brutality applied to brown people of all faiths, including Jews. I also find it really strange that any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti-Semitic. I actually think equating the brutal behaviour of the Israeli governme…

Just want to point out that Purim celebrates the rescue of the Jewish people from mass extermination, not the extermination of others.

In fact in Jewish tradition Amalek remains a force to this day.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#163

Post by avensec »

sitkack wrote: post #14
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

A good read for some additional context on caste discrimination in the American tech industry: https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

I am a Director-Level in Engineering/QA/Quality Engineering. I currently lead a team where our ratio of Female Indian women is higher than any other engineering group at the company. Every Quality Engineering team I have been apart of has had a higher ratio of females, but not necessarily of any specific background.

My N=1 experience is that this can be related, but not always directly about discrimination or sexism. I would need to include cultural oppression, personal confidence, and others to accurately reflect a summation. I do not doubt that bias or discrimination exist, just that I culturally do my best to have a positive influence.

A few years ago I wanted to understand better, so I asked for feedback from a previous amazing Indian female SDET (whose husband is the CTO of one of the big retail chains). She explained a lot to me about how a woman's position being higher than a mans was culturally challenging. She also had self-doubts about her ability to thrive in a mostly-male driven engineering organization. I worked with her on a transition into a Development team, and the resistance came mostly from her fears of cultural bias and discrimination. The Dev team took less than five minutes to round-table agree that she was fit for the position.

The bias and discrimination exist, but localized, the teams I've worked with are always very supportive and welcoming.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#164

Post by HWR_14 »

bko wrote: post #24
rsstack wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to weigh in. But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? This isn't political, it's professional: US laws and Google policies forbid discrimination, and so people need to be trained in understanding what discrimination looks like. You don't categorize "securit…

> But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? Shouldn't the managers and decision makers be aware of the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage? You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subor…

> Shouldn't the managers and decision makers be aware of the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage?

Google is a US company. In the US, the "local custom and employment law" is that companies don't accept caste based discrimination. (It's also technically illegal in India). I think not only is it appropriate for a white American manager to lecture Indian subordinates about stopping caste based discrimination, it's an obligation to do so and fire the subordinates if they continue.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#165

Post by monetus »

acheron wrote: post #84
djbusby wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Good thing they've all been dead for close to a hundred years then.

Having stayed in Columbia TN for a decent while, I can tell you that the legacy is alive and well. Really, visit if you ever drive by - the confederate headquaters is in an anti-bellum house where they give tours, and they never say anything bad about the social dynamics of the past. It really leaves an elephant in the room, when they are selling battle flags in the gift shop embroidered with things like history not hate.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#166

Post by zionic »

the_only_law wrote: post #112
zionic wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The role of caste within the US is a super important conversation to have, and every resident of the US is entitled to participate, but there are a lot of people with a vested interest in shutting it down and the tools to do so. I don't believe HN's current moderation policies/leadership make this the place to have that conversation though. Participate in good faith all you want, you'll still earn a ban/warning for…

Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs. They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread.

>Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs.

I hope you didn't take my comment is advocating for that. I can't really comment on a thread I didn't see.

>They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread.

Sounds like pointless name calling. That said, my original point that HN is not a good place to have these discussions stands. Unfortunately this community is for sterilized technical discussion, anything with spice or flavor isn't permitted.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#167

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sumedh wrote: post #115
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> importing ethnicities means importing their ethnic conflicts too, always Is there evidence for this? Couldn't null be valid: those choosing to emigrate are most likely to be willing or wanting to leave that nonsense behind? Caste has no place in America. It's antithetical to our founding values. Plenty of Indians emigrate while leaving their caste identity, and any will to act on it, behind. There may remain implic…

> Plenty of Indians emigrate while leaving their caste identity Caste is something most Indians grow up with, you dont really lose it just because you go to another country. Most kids of these Indians fortunately dont really care about caste.

> you dont really lose it just because you go to another country

One may not lose it. But one can reject it. That's the gist of my implicit biases line.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#168

Post by izacus »

the_only_law wrote: post #94
izacus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, you can always reliably find a massive amount of racism against the Romani people ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people ).

It’s very blunt and to the point as well, no beating around the bush or wriggling around to try to make yourself look less bad for it like in America.

I'm fascinated how such comments actually showed up here down the thread. ^^

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#169

Post by UmYeahNo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #136
lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

> every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism Is there a term for shutting down a discussion by turning the belligerence to eleven? Such that people outside the discussion tune out not the views of those being belligerent, but the discussion itself?

>Is there a term for shutting down a discussion by turning the belligerence to eleven?

"Trolled into oblivion", perhaps?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#170

Post by swayvil »

zionic wrote: post #104
lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

>The role of caste within the US is a super important conversation to have, and every resident of the US is entitled to participate, but there are a lot of people with a vested interest in shutting it down and the tools to do so. I don't believe HN's current moderation policies/leadership make this the place to have that conversation though. Participate in good faith all you want, you'll still earn a ban/warning for…

Yeah, giving the power of censorship to the masses leads to the opposite of free conversation. And these particular masses do indeed like to flag anything they disagree with.

And that message, "You're replying too fast, slow down". Lol. What duplicity.

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