Google cancelled a talk on caste bias • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#121

Post by dhzhzjsbevs » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #108

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote from the article gave me pause. It sounds like an admission that they wanted the good PR from having a caste bias speaker, but when having a conversation on a difficult topic actually became difficult, they backed down. Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult con…

Let's be real here. The talk was likely scheduled by a moral individual which thought the topic important. Then controversy began and middle management was made aware to this. Guess what happened next? It's not that Google gave up. They were never going to allow it to begin with and the organizer likely just hoped it would fly under the radar.

Google has a track record of pandering to the mob. Has nothing to do with middle management.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#122

Post by 29athrowaway » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

> How dare we criticize another culture when we have our own problems?

Because there are now 4.6 million Indian Americans and they are one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in the US.

So it's our own problem now too.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#123

Post by kergonath » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18

Is there a Wikipedia list of obscure 'race'-isms? I find reading about other cultures or other time period's biases to be informative and wonder what the common elements might be. Off the top of my head, issues I can think of where an outsider may be oblivious between the "sides" are: Indian caste Japanese Barukumin caste Protestant/Catholic in Europe Jewish people in Europe/US/USSR English Class System, or Southern/…

> list of obscure 'race'-isms

The word you need is “xenophobia” (hate of the others, of those who are different). Race is a limited, artificial concept and by focusing on it we miss the forest for the trees. Xenophobia is as old as humanity and can be based on anything: physical features; ideas, religions, languages, family ties, etc.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#124

Post by havblue » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

lexapro wrote: post #37

sitkack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

There seem to be more women in QA in general. Genuinely asking: Is this also sexism?

I think QA is inherently unpopular. "Oh God are you really going to make me document this before you sign off???"

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#125

Post by yakshaving_jgt » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

rob74 wrote: post #16

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #7

This is likely an example why it may not always be a great idea to discuss politics at work. I know a lot of us have strong personal opinions on a lot of subjects, but making sure everyone on my team aligns with my beliefs is likely not conducive to teamwork. Quite the opposite. If I was not an IC now, I would definitely be trying to cut discussions like that in a bud.

Except racism (and "caste-based discrimination" is also racism) shouldn't be considered "politics", everybody should be able to agree that it doesn't have a place in a modern company.

According to people like Robin DiAngelo, white people are inherently racist, as she wrote in her book White Fragility.

It’s difficult to say that we can all agree to not be racist when some ideologues from whom’s political ideas companies base DEI initiatives on claim that racism is an immutable characteristic that many of us are born with.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Post by wizwit999 » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

zen_1 wrote: post #83

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> importing ethnicities means importing their ethnic conflicts too, always Is there evidence for this? Couldn't null be valid: those choosing to emigrate are most likely to be willing or wanting to leave that nonsense behind? Caste has no place in America. It's antithetical to our founding values. Plenty of Indians emigrate while leaving their caste identity, and any will to act on it, behind. There may remain implic…

Quoted post unavailable.

Don't both sides, there's no groups, the only military group there Americans are joining is the IDF.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#127

Post by car_analogy » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

mrcartmeneses wrote: post #95

naravara wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult conversation you'd rather not have? The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciousl…

Would you dismiss Martin Luther King as an “activist”? But your point is in some ways valid, as it’s important to be able to see Israel through the lens of colonialism and to show that the state’s brutality applied to brown people of all faiths, including Jews. I also find it really strange that any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti-Semitic. I actually think equating the brutal behaviour of the Israeli governme…

> The Tora has exactly zero passages about it being OK to murder children

Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. - 1 Samuel 15

That's one example. The old testament claims God commanded the total extermination of multiple nations competing with the Israelites [1]. This extermination is celebrated to this day during the Purim festival [2]. When someone mentions Judeo-Christian morality, know that the first part of that duo is not remotely "turn the other cheek" - it is literally old testament.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare#Wars_of_ex...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#Jewish_traditions

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#128

Post by ethbr0 » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

djbusby wrote: post #70

throwaway049 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A weak argument is a weak argument. Or are you saying brahmins and confederates have a lot in common and ought to spend more time together?

Quoted post unavailable.

What do you have against confederacies?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#129

Post by Karawebnetwork » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18

Is there a Wikipedia list of obscure 'race'-isms? I find reading about other cultures or other time period's biases to be informative and wonder what the common elements might be. Off the top of my head, issues I can think of where an outsider may be oblivious between the "sides" are: Indian caste Japanese Barukumin caste Protestant/Catholic in Europe Jewish people in Europe/US/USSR English Class System, or Southern/…

Not as much of a day-to-day issue for the newest generations but French Canada vs. English Canada (historically "Lower Canada" vs "Upper Canada", which shouldn't be relevant but some people still use the old labels an excuse for casual 'race'-isms as you call it).

The youngest French Canadians generally speak English. However the oldest generations (50+ or 60+ depending on the region) couldn't and mostly still can't due to the way the system was set up. And since a lot of companies came from either the US or the rest of Canada, they had no hopes in climbing ranks or being competitive as businesspeople. There are some records of French Canadians being sent to unusually harsh missions during the great wars too.

There are casual insults such as calling French Canadian "frogs" and English Canadians "square heads" still in use today.

It is still present even in tech companies where English speakers are sent to client meetings as it is sometimes perceived "rude" to sent someone with a French accent to the front.

These days, it's mostly about not extending the classic "warm Canadian welcome" to the other category. But in some situations, it can get more serious.

(That being said, in 2022 it does not really compare to some of the other examples listed above.)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#130

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

rob74 wrote: post #21

> Soundararajan appealed directly to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who comes from an upper-caste family in India, to allow her presentation to go forward. But the talk was canceled, leading some employees to conclude that Google was willfully ignoring caste bias. > Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how…

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