Science needs more research software engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#31

Post by breck » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:06 AM UTC

xroja wrote: post #23

I've worked at a top research university for the past 15 years as a research software engineer. Many of these comments have some truth but a lot are definitely not universally true. Poor compensation: Yup, I'll cop to that. I could be making way more in "industry" but I make enough to live and I don't build ad-ware and do take pride in my work. Being a PhD but little respect: I actually have the opposite experience.…

I also did a couple years at a university as a research software engineer and my experience matches yours.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#32

Post by bmitc » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:06 AM UTC

throwawaysleep wrote: post #28

bmitc wrote: post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I recently quit a job as a software engineer on a research project for all the reasons mentioned. They want grunts who don't care about project management or good engineering practices and they will belittle you as not worth the money even when you took a (theoretical, as I am overemployed) massive paycut to go and work for them. I made 1/3 there compared to the jobs I am interviewing for to replace it. These people…

Yea, it's frustrating because there are indeed some super cool projects just waiting to have interesting software written for them, especially in the more hardware/physical oriented R&D areas. There are some areas that take software seriously, but in general, I have found it really difficult to get scientists and research engineers excited about anything that they don't know about. I don't think its malice. I think its part of their education and institutionalization couple a little with arrogance and somewhat blind view towards areas outside their expertise. I have given presentations before, and I usually only got interesting feedback from non-PI level workers. I always tried to paint a picture that we were doing state of the art technology development, so why shouldn't state of the art software be developed to support that?

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#33

Post by jjtheblunt » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:08 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I think you accidentally revealed the problem when you said "best practices", because asserting such introduces a presumed total order on expertise, and that introduces conflict. thus ends the discussion between a PI and someone telling them they know better?

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#34

Post by stackbutterflow » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:08 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

See this infamous discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/6l2esd/d_w...

Tldr: They view software as just a tool and don't see how they'll benefit from following best practices.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#35

Post by bmitc » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:08 AM UTC

l0b0 wrote: post #29

bmitc wrote: post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I'd encourage you to have a look at a well-known European physics research laboratory's (rhymes with Bern) library and engineering departments ( not IT, unless they've started using version control and tests since I worked there). The salary is not as bad as academia, and there's plenty of interesting stuff going on. Most of it is accessible to anyone interested in a way I've not seen outside of academia.

Certainly cool stuff but out of the question due to location. I've worked for or met with people from similar size (at least in ambition) projects. It's a tough world to break into and especially difficult to bring a different outlook to.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#36

Post by NoahKAndrews » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:09 AM UTC

travisgriggs wrote: post #20

ethanwillis wrote: post #2

Well, then science needs to do more to create an environment where software engineers would want to be an RSE. From my experience "science" does not appreciate RSEs, the compensation is bad, the freedom is bad, and you get all of the big company bureaucracy from the University. It's just a bad environment and to top it off, even if you have a PhD many will see you as "less than."

This last point, and replies to this all seem to talk about the research industry. But it has been my experience that this same dynamic of being “less than” exists in any industry that is not primarily software. I am a mechanical engineer by degree, but a software engineer by 30 years of practice. That has allowed me to thrice straddle the divide where I worked on software that was not just software for softwares sak…

I sent you an email too, but my employer REV Robotics definitely fits this description in my opinion, especially in regards to the software team's collaboration with the electrical team.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#37

Post by bmitc » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:11 AM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #33

bmitc wrote: post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I think you accidentally revealed the problem when you said "best practices", because asserting such introduces a presumed total order on expertise, and that introduces conflict. thus ends the discussion between a PI and someone telling them they know better?

It's pretty easy for me to acquiesce all design decisions to their expertise and/or role in addition to being excited by what they do. I'd just like that to be reciprocated.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#38

Post by cozzyd » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:13 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #32

throwawaysleep wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently quit a job as a software engineer on a research project for all the reasons mentioned. They want grunts who don't care about project management or good engineering practices and they will belittle you as not worth the money even when you took a (theoretical, as I am overemployed) massive paycut to go and work for them. I made 1/3 there compared to the jobs I am interviewing for to replace it. These people…

Yea, it's frustrating because there are indeed some super cool projects just waiting to have interesting software written for them, especially in the more hardware/physical oriented R&D areas. There are some areas that take software seriously, but in general, I have found it really difficult to get scientists and research engineers excited about anything that they don't know about. I don't think its malice. I think i…

On the flip side of that, many experiments run for decades or longer, and "state of the art" software is often a poor impedance match for that.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#39

Post by andi999 » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:15 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #17

The other side of "We need software engineers in research" is surely the botched covid model from Imperial College way back at the beginning of the pandemic. The group that produced it had the audacity to complain that the software industry didn't make C++ foolproof enough, and it was our fault that the modelling was wrong. This shows the attitude that some folks in these places have - what you do is easy, and rather…

Any reference for that incident, i havent heard of it and am curious.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#40

Post by ElevenPhonons » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:16 AM UTC

ethanwillis wrote: post #2

Well, then science needs to do more to create an environment where software engineers would want to be an RSE. From my experience "science" does not appreciate RSEs, the compensation is bad, the freedom is bad, and you get all of the big company bureaucracy from the University. It's just a bad environment and to top it off, even if you have a PhD many will see you as "less than."

That was my experience as well.

The RSE role doesn't seem to fit into their current model. It doesn't work from a career path, nor from a competitive compensation standpoint.

I suspect that the housing crisis is also going to push more people out of these positions.

If you have a PhD in material science, physics, chemistry, biology, etc... and are reasonably knowledgable in Python (or similar), perhaps spend a year as a postdoc. After that year, seriously consider moving to a tech company.