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Science needs more research software engineers

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21–30 of 366 posts

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#21

It's already been said several times over but I'm going to throw it out anyway. I'd love to work at a university as a research software engineer. I find things like bioinformatics fascinating and even interviewed at a research university on the east coast. But, you will get paid SIGNIFICANTLY less than you would doing almost anything else, have zero autonomy, and get no respect. Those 3 things are basically what most…

The pay and autonomy will never improve, I can tell you that now. That’s the reality of the current system.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#23
I've worked at a top research university for the past 15 years as a research software engineer. Many of these comments have some truth but a lot are definitely not universally true.

Poor compensation: Yup, I'll cop to that. I could be making way more in "industry" but I make enough to live and I don't build ad-ware and do take pride in my work.

Being a PhD but little respect: I actually have the opposite experience. I'm not a PhD, I don't even have a Masters. But I can write decent software and I get respect and recognition from my PIs and other top-tier faculty that we've collaborated with. I feel like I've gotten just as much respect with my humble BS in Comp Sci from a state school than if I got a MS/PhD.

Micromanagement: I have the total opposite experience. I've worked with the same group for a long time, maybe that changes things. We apply for and receive grants to work on projects. We make high-level assertions for what we will do during the course of the grant and our PI gives us lots of lee-way to meet the goals of the grant in whatever technical way gets results, is FAIR, and open. Granted, I may have just lucked out here.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#24
I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you just get asked "why can't you just write it in Python or C because those are the only two things I'm remotely familiar with and zip it up and put it on a USB drive?". Heaven forbid you actually want to do something novel, no matter how enabling it could be. I have been continually inspired by Bret Victor's Seeing Spaces talk and have always wanted to build such a system described for a lab, but unfortunately, it was really hard to get anyone interested much less excited by such an idea. Scientists are far more institutionalized, conservative, and myopic than they admit. Physicists don't even use the proper word for code. They call it "codes". (I've seen in first-hand, in research papers, and in published books. It's endemic.)

I've literally sat in meetings trying to get access to scientific projects I'm interested in and applied for jobs even at the university I already worked at in similar capacities, and yet, it's filled with PIs just wanting grunt labor (i.e., what they're used to from graduate students) to build things that they understand or you absolutely never hear back or the pay is a third of what you already make. And then there's pockets of software people in this niche world that only want to do things their way, because that's all they've ever done, and they can really be quite obstinate. They're like this massive pillar you must somehow work around.

I really, really, really like writing software in scientific contexts, but it's such a quagmire. I'd like to return to that world some day with the lessons I've learned outside of it. Software in support of an interesting domain or context is just really fun. I've also tried getting a job at an architecture firm that had some very neat ideas for building out a tool, but the response was basically the same as described above.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#25

Well, then science needs to do more to create an environment where software engineers would want to be an RSE. From my experience "science" does not appreciate RSEs, the compensation is bad, the freedom is bad, and you get all of the big company bureaucracy from the University. It's just a bad environment and to top it off, even if you have a PhD many will see you as "less than."

This last point, and replies to this all seem to talk about the research industry. But it has been my experience that this same dynamic of being “less than” exists in any industry that is not primarily software. I am a mechanical engineer by degree, but a software engineer by 30 years of practice. That has allowed me to thrice straddle the divide where I worked on software that was not just software for softwares sak…

Just curious, have you sampled many robotics companies? I have worked with dozens and it seems like there are some with well-balanced power dynamics between mechanical-electrical-software.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#26
post #11

I’d been active-ish in US-RSE and worked at a national lab for 10+ years. I left about a half year ago for a position at a FANG-ish company. My pay was almost doubled (after counting bonus) and with RSUs it’s double+. I could have squeezed out another $XXk maybe when I left the national lab system, should I had stayed. The biggest reasons I left were as follows: 1. Too much legacy responsibility. Legacy responsibilit…

[deleted]

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#27
I haven't seen a single competetive job posting from a research institution in 10 years of software development, despite having the desire and acumen to seek them out. I don't expect that to change. If I care enough about a thorny research problem, I'll start my own company, do my own research, and maybe hire some academics as bargain-barrel contributors to do grunt analytics work... the last thing I'll do is join a research mill as a cost-center tech hire.

"Most RSEs have a PhD"... talk about selecting aggressively for people with no experience building functional software. Hiring only PhDs to write research software smacks of hiring only white males who can drink and play golf to function as business executives. You're selecting for ability to posture, not deliver value.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#28
post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I recently quit a job as a software engineer on a research project for all the reasons mentioned. They want grunts who don't care about project management or good engineering practices and they will belittle you as not worth the money even when you took a (theoretical, as I am overemployed) massive paycut to go and work for them. I made 1/3 there compared to the jobs I am interviewing for to replace it.

These people desperately need software help and have worthwhile projects that need software help. They also need to learn to collaborate over just parsing out obscure goals and being upset when what they get matches their three sentence email and not their vision in their head.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#29
post #24

I don't think scientists want research software engineers. PIs typically like to assume any and every role on a project, including software design. They don't like handing things off and letting people build modern, best practices software. You start talking about source code control, package managers, a language used in industry that they've never even heard of and don't care enough to learn about, etc., and you jus…

I'd encourage you to have a look at a well-known European physics research laboratory's (rhymes with Bern) library and engineering departments (not IT, unless they've started using version control and tests since I worked there). The salary is not as bad as academia, and there's plenty of interesting stuff going on. Most of it is accessible to anyone interested in a way I've not seen outside of academia.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#30

Science needs more "technicians" of all types, and less PhD students. Good luck making that transformation though.

Could you elaborate on what that would look like?

I think they’re describing professional grad students.
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