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Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

blog.tutorspree.com

81–90 of 161 posts

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#81

The roles that we fill at this stage are highly specialized and generally call for nearly contradictory attributes in candidates. You need incredible good engineers who are not already in golden handcuffs, are crazy enough to join a risky early stage company, do not want to found their own company right now, want to work at all hours, and are aligned with the culture you are trying to build. It seems that this is ind…

Quite. There have been recent discussions on HN which point out the darkside of this: that early employees of startups often take as much risk and work as hard as the founders, yet get a tiny sliver of the upside. Co-founder, or nothing.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#82
I had a conversation with a recruiter and she said how can you expect to get a job if you have ColdFusion on your resume instead of Cold Fusion?

I directed her to adobe.com so she could see the correct spelling. She went oh crap, I've been throwing away all the resumes with ColdFusion because the employer spelled it Cold Fusion.

No wonder the client is complaining to me about the low quality of candidates that I am sending them. She promised to get me an interview with them but never called back.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#83
post #9

This cuts both ways: looking for work takes a substantial, non-zero amount of time, and it's extremely frustrating when startups decide to speak with you even though they know hiring you is "a long shot." Searching for work at a startup has been a protracted, fruitless process. They have no problem conversing with you and checking out your background over coffee, lunch, whatever. After a few conversations and a techn…

My opinion: if startups aren't serious about hiring you, they shouldn't go through the dance. Why are they wasting everybody's time?

Given the costs involved in making a bad hire, at what point does it become unreasonable to turn a candidate away?

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#84
post #6

As far as I can tell, it's like choosing between paying for display advertising or affiliate marketing. Two different mindsets and neither are a bad thing. You either do the recruitment in-house and absorb all the risk to your business, which means lots of extra interviews, staff looking through high volumes of paperwork, etc. Or you hand it over to a third party, pay them nothing for the process (i.e. they take on t…

Except that, most 3rd-party recruiters being clueless, you still have to do all the work. The only sensible way I've seen to use them is as a pure resume source. The folks at Wealthfront explain how: http://eng.wealthfront.com/2011/07/hire-best-forget-rest.htm...

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#85
post #36
post #16

I had an idea of making recruiters put their money where their mouths are. Want to represent me? That'll cost you $2000/year. If you find me a great job in the next few years you you get many times your money back.

Recruiters would not consider such an arrangement unless you're a celebrity of the industry with a stellar resume. The candidate pool is too large to spend time and effort trying to place a single candidate in a great job.

At least this might force the recruiter to admit what his true assessment of your chances are - if you don't call their bluff, they will forever tell you that you are a perfect fit, and that the job is the best ever.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#86
post #23

A few days ago I moderated a panel discussion at the Computer History Museum with the founders of Dropbox, Evernote, and Wildfire. I asked whether it was worth dealing with outside recruiters, and they all said no. They all had recruiters working for them in house. In fact between 3% and 5% of their employees were recruiters. They said the best source of people initially were the friends of the founders and the first…

pg, I'm curious about the advice you give to YC founders on identifying and recruiting early employees. Based on tutorspree's job posting they need roughly the same level of technical skills as a founder but they're getting a maximum of 3% equity and a below-market NYC salary. I'd guess the founders are getting 5-10x the equity and a salary that's not too far off from the one offered above. Is this package consistent…

Equity grants are based on risk, not ability.

Sometimes, very talented technical people are assuming extra risk due to opportunity cost; perhaps some other startup is offering comparable equity but has a longer runway and/or more traction. If those people are good at negotiating, they get better equity grants.

A few factors play in to the gulf between founder and early employee equity:

* Founders have by definition committed to the idea before it had any traction at all. More risk.

* Founders have spent more time at the company than employees. Each day spent at the startup, in addition to accruing compensable effort, carries opportunity cost (not to hop ship to some other company) and thus more risk.

* Founders have often worked, at least for a time, at zero salary. More risk.

* Founders that can get their companies funded, accepted into YC, or bootstrapped to market traction can presumably do that again somewhere else --- again implying they're accepting the opportunity cost of committing to one startup instead of starting another. Most employees, regardless of ability, can't say that.

It's important to remember that founding teams have drastically different compensation packages than employees do; it's almost an apples/oranges comparison. You want to remember this not to empathize with the founders but to keep in mind how different their incentives are from yours.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#87
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As pg notes above, the best hires early on often come from your personal network. Our first hire I had worked with before.

I was the first developer hired at an early stage startup and I knew no one in the metro area where I eventually ended up working. It's unfair not to give someone a shot to interview based on a perceived notion that the best hires only come from your personal network.

Having a good resume with skills A,B and C: 5-10pts.

Interview confirms that your resume wasn't full of BS: 10-20 pts

You can perform skills A,B,C on a whiteboard or laptop interview session: 20-50 pts

1 year of seeing you exhibiting skills A,B, and C under real world conditions and interacting with other people: 100-300 pts

No matter how unfair this seems, if you have the same skills as someone in my network, they have an almost impossible to overcome advantage in my hiring equations.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#88
post #23

A few days ago I moderated a panel discussion at the Computer History Museum with the founders of Dropbox, Evernote, and Wildfire. I asked whether it was worth dealing with outside recruiters, and they all said no. They all had recruiters working for them in house. In fact between 3% and 5% of their employees were recruiters. They said the best source of people initially were the friends of the founders and the first…

as soon as you've exhausted this source you should start hiring recruiters. Did they present any evidence to support this position, or does "should" in this case just mean that this is what they did? There have been a few times when I've talked to technical people at startups and come away thinking "if it weren't for Tarsnap, I'd totally go work for them". In contrast, every time I talk to a recruiter, I come away th…

When a smart small company hires a recruiter, part of the goal is to have recruits never really realize they're talking to recruiters. Presumably most YC recruiters aren't randomly cold calling people; instead their job might involve a lot more of "setting up circumstances so that the right person in their company is likely to end up talking to Colin Percival".

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#89
post #36
post #16

I had an idea of making recruiters put their money where their mouths are. Want to represent me? That'll cost you $2000/year. If you find me a great job in the next few years you you get many times your money back.

Recruiters would not consider such an arrangement unless you're a celebrity of the industry with a stellar resume. The candidate pool is too large to spend time and effort trying to place a single candidate in a great job.

maybe something universities could do to differentiate themselves.

or individuals? I'm horrendous at selling myself and (now that I've been unemployed for >6 months) would gladly pay a ridiculous amount for someone to coach me through getting a job. I keep telling people that I'd like an agent. Everyone takes it as a joke :/

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#90
post #23

A few days ago I moderated a panel discussion at the Computer History Museum with the founders of Dropbox, Evernote, and Wildfire. I asked whether it was worth dealing with outside recruiters, and they all said no. They all had recruiters working for them in house. In fact between 3% and 5% of their employees were recruiters. They said the best source of people initially were the friends of the founders and the first…

as soon as you've exhausted this source you should start hiring recruiters. Did they present any evidence to support this position, or does "should" in this case just mean that this is what they did? There have been a few times when I've talked to technical people at startups and come away thinking "if it weren't for Tarsnap, I'd totally go work for them". In contrast, every time I talk to a recruiter, I come away th…

There is a vast difference between hiring a great recruiter and the kind of recruiter that you describe. So the best solution is to find and hire a great recruiter. Like most "best solutions" this is far from easy, much like most of the work you will have to do to make a successful startup.
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