Live data from Hacker News

Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

blog.tutorspree.com

61–70 of 161 posts

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#61
Here's my most recent recruiting cold call:

Him: Hello, I need to speak to the person who manages your servers.

Me: Uh, who is this?

Him: I need to report an issue with your servers. Are you the person who manages the servers?

Me: What kind of issue?

Him: Do you manage the servers?

Me: I manage the office. What's the issue you need to report?

Him: Oh! I'm calling because I understand that it's very hard to find good Linux and Ruby on Rails people in Chicago and-

Me: You're a recruiter?

Him: Yes, and-

Click.

Our current recruiter policy, at least in the Chicago office: $50 to the person in the office who can keep a recruiter on the phone the longest using only Emacs Eliza.

In terms of actually recruiting people:

* It's one of the key jobs for the management team; for instance, it is the thing I spend the most time on after billable work.

* We do increasingly generous referral bonuses for good candidates.

* We're doing a number of outreach programs (free classes and the like) to meet candidates.

Ultimately, like SEO consultants and direct sales people, the problem with recruiters is adverse selection. There are good recruiters out there, but they can more or less print money; they aren't cold-calling you. Anyone who is cold-calling isn't a good recruiter. There aren't many good recruiters. The most useful shorthand is "all recruiters are terrible".

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#62
post #53

Quote: You need incredible good engineers who are not already in golden handcuffs, are crazy enough to join a risky early stage company, do not want to found their own company right now, want to work at all hours, and are aligned with the culture you are trying to build. That really is asking for everything. I hope you have figured out a way to explain your value proposition to these dream candidates.

Agreed. Are there people who really want to work at all hours? Maybe eager students right out of college. Personally, I'm at the point where if I'm going to be working at all hours, I'd better be one of the primary beneficiaries of that work.

Basically, you want that rarest of birds - shy sparks who aren't nestled in a large company yet.

Too introverted to be really aware of their market value and have a life and smart enough that they're going to be obsessed with the work and work at it all the time.

Considering I'm having a hard time finding "reasonably competent" Rails devs, I can't imagine how you might hire for that kind of position.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#63

Quote: You need incredible good engineers who are not already in golden handcuffs, are crazy enough to join a risky early stage company, do not want to found their own company right now, want to work at all hours, and are aligned with the culture you are trying to build. That really is asking for everything. I hope you have figured out a way to explain your value proposition to these dream candidates.

There is actually a wellspring: quantitative finance.

There were many people drawn by the allure of finance back in 2006-2008 and are now thinking of leaving. Generally people have enough money to carry themselves for some time on a low salary, have the risk tolerance (after all, they can cover themeselves), and can work at all hours.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#65
post #23

A few days ago I moderated a panel discussion at the Computer History Museum with the founders of Dropbox, Evernote, and Wildfire. I asked whether it was worth dealing with outside recruiters, and they all said no. They all had recruiters working for them in house. In fact between 3% and 5% of their employees were recruiters. They said the best source of people initially were the friends of the founders and the first…

as soon as you've exhausted this source you should start hiring recruiters.

Did they present any evidence to support this position, or does "should" in this case just mean that this is what they did?

There have been a few times when I've talked to technical people at startups and come away thinking "if it weren't for Tarsnap, I'd totally go work for them". In contrast, every time I talk to a recruiter, I come away thinking "if this is the sort of people they have at X, there's no way in hell I'd ever want to work there".

I'm not sure what the best solution is here, but it seems that recruiters are far from perfect.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#66

As a technical recruiter I am not shocked by this post but I am a little frustrated with the large brush that is painted on the industry as a whole. I mean, I have worked with some BAD Developers, everything they write breaks the minute it is in production, you can never pry them away from the foosball table or lunch room, they smell and can’t speak in complete sentences BUT I still recruit for technical talent becau…

Good developers are hardly ever on the market. The majority of them are happy at their current jobs, and they know they could go anywhere else they wanted because their skills are highly valued.

I'm sure it gets annoying when they frequently receive emails about "Technically Forward High Frequency Trading Firms" from recruiters who happened to find them through playing buzzword bingo.

These recruiters tout that this new "opportunity" will give more money, benefits, responsibility, good looks, and sexual prowess, but never do the due diligence to make sure that their client is actually a good fit.

It's the shotgun approach that most recruiters use that turns good developers off.

Maybe once these recruiters treat developers with more respect, so will they.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#67
Here's another side of the story: I just moved to SF, and I'm looking for jobs. Two friends sic'd a bunch of recruiters on me, and it is awesome! Here's the process:

   1. They email or call me, and I send my resume and short summary of what I want.
   2. They send me streams of awesome jobs.  (Two have sent bad jobs, but gmail has 
      a hotkey for that :D )
   3. I say I want to talk to XYZ at one of these times, and they hustle to make it 
      happen.
   4. They tell me little nuggets like "The last guy I placed here made $X"
I'm running my own processes in parallel, and I can tell you that they suck a lot more. Non-recruiters -- and even in-house recruiters -- are hard to herd.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#68
The roles that we fill at this stage are highly specialized and generally call for nearly contradictory attributes in candidates. You need incredible good engineers who are not already in golden handcuffs, are crazy enough to join a risky early stage company, do not want to found their own company right now, want to work at all hours, and are aligned with the culture you are trying to build.

It seems that this is indeed what startups are looking for. It also seems that they are generally unwilling to pay market salary. And startups don't seem willing to part with enough equity to make up the difference in the slightest if you weigh in how unlikely it is for employees to see any return on equity.

There may be a reason why these jobs are hard to fill.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#69
post #64

So where do you search for engineers if you're a startup?

As pg notes above, the best hires early on often come from your personal network. Our first hire I had worked with before.

I was the first developer hired at an early stage startup and I knew no one in the metro area where I eventually ended up working. It's unfair not to give someone a shot to interview based on a perceived notion that the best hires only come from your personal network.

Re: Recruiters are, by and large, a waste of your time

#70

Quote: You need incredible good engineers who are not already in golden handcuffs, are crazy enough to join a risky early stage company, do not want to found their own company right now, want to work at all hours, and are aligned with the culture you are trying to build. That really is asking for everything. I hope you have figured out a way to explain your value proposition to these dream candidates.

The line you quoted stood out for me most. It does seem like a tall order. Does networking work better (than hiring a recruiter) when recruiting for startups? Do you come to places like HN to build relationships? It seems you'd have to win people over 1-to-1 -- get them to believe in your vision and culture enough that they'd join you, in spite of all the risk -- which takes time and energy (both worth it) as well as…

Data suggests that close to 60% of all skilled $90k+ jobs are found through networking. (Sources: http://meeteor.posterous.com/why-job-postings-are-useless-fo...)

Shameless Plug which is why we built Meeteor.com - our aim is to get you warm introductions into the companies you're interested in, through your friends.

Post reply on HN