If I understand correctly, they had an online async test and they shared screenshots of the answers. Is that even cheating? It wouldn't even register as cheating for me... When I was at the university (not US) we had these online "tests" too, but it was a different category than the real tests. Nobody really cared what you do. Sometimes we sat down together and did it one by one (especially if it was some random generated math problem), other times we just shared the answers (when the test was too lame...)
My students cheated... a lot
681–690 of 1001 posts
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#682The animated GIFs are really distracting and detract from the writing. I eventually deleted them from the parts I hadn't yet read.
I have to say that Crump was incredibly forgiving and put in a lot of extra effort. I don't think anyone I've been taught by would have gone to this much trouble.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#683Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…
I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…
Because most of what is needed out there doesn't require an equivalent of a doctor's degree.
The truth is, is that programming languages themselves have evolved far enough that knowing exactly what's running underneath the hood isn't needed anymore, outside of niche specialist cases. Most people don't even need to worry about seeing a single 'index out of range' issue, or worry about CPU cycles. And it's only going to become easier and easier.
I'd compare it to bricklaying. Yes, you need to use the correct formula for the cement you use, but figuring out that formula has already happened. For niche cases that require special cement, you go to the cement specialists that know the ins and outs of it.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#684Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…
But you don’t need a degree to understand the fundamentals. Jus because you don’t have a degree from an institution it doesn’t mean you don’t count as a programmer. You can learn all of this things on your own pace even if you started by learning how to modify Wordpress themes or got into the field after taking a boot camp. My point is (from the original comment) that grading knowledge and ability to produce quality…
>But you don’t need a degree to understand the fundamentals. Jus because you don’t have a degree from an institution it doesn’t mean you don’t count as a programmer. You can learn all of this things on your own pace even if you started by learning how to modify Wordpress themes or got into the field after taking a boot camp.
We can argue this about any other field.
>For example you’re likely not getting a job straight after college without facing the company’s interview process.
We should have a bare minimum standard, not a maximum.
But colleges and universities should be good enough that graduating one means you are in a proper position and have proper knowledge and abilities to start a career. Since that is not always the case, companies do still organize their own processes.
By not graduating some recognized form of higher education in the field, you don't prove to your future employers that you might be good at what they need. You just prove that you weren't willing to do the work for a few years and that you might not have the knowledge. Some won't care as their work is simple enough and they might train you on the job, some will test you harder and some will not get you past screenings.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#685Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…
My position on this has been pretty controversial when I've shared it before, but I still think it's correct: Measuring knowledge at scale is futile, harmful, and pointless. The fact that a lot of society has been arranged around the fiction that this is a feasible endeavor does not mean it has borne out in practice, and prioritizing assessment in this way has been gradually hollowing out most forms of pedagogy of th…
What you are saying is not at all controversial, but it is incomplete, which is probably why you have received pushback in the past. Criticising the existing system is easy. Giving an alternative is harder. Implementing that alternative and showing that it's actually better on some metric is MUCH harder than that. But you have not even given an alternative!
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#686Quite sad that nothing came out of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U . Sir Ken Robinson has a lot to say about the education paradigm and why it should be changed, and in what ways. He appeared on TED[1][2], too, since then, and probably elsewhere as well. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX78iKhInsc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
Sadly he passed away in 2020.
Oh wow, I just remembered now. :( That's really upsetting! He was the only person giving me hope. :/ Thank you for the reminder.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#687Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…
There are markets for a wide range of abilities. Even in medicine, the first triage will probably be done by a nurse, then a doctor, finally a specialist. You don't need a CS PhD for most of the work done with computers and it would be unrealistic and uneconomical to require such a high standard everywhere. People make a good living customizing WordPress sites and the buyers get good value from it.
>There are markets for a wide range of abilities.
Even in medicine, the first triage will probably be done by a nurse, then a doctor, finally a specialist.
Then why require long time in school and residency for doctors? A boot camp should be enough.
>You don't need a CS PhD for most of the work done with computers and it would be unrealistic and uneconomical to require such a high standard everywhere.
No, you don't need any degree to use Excel or MS Word or modifying WordPress themes. But you should need a batchelor degree if if you want to be a high level specialist, programmer or architect.
>People make a good living customizing WordPress sites and the buyers get good value from it.
Likewise, you need a proper education to be a civil engineer or an architect. You do not need a degree to lay bricks or pour concrete.
I am asking for degrees for the higher levels of IT field, not for the people who modify WordPress themes, whom I am sure do a great job and are highly needed but are not exactly exponents of high level work in this field.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#688My opinion is that he failed as a teacher.
I mean, come on, imagine a scenario where class A has a test and class B has the same test a day after. Of course the people in class B will ask the people of class A what was in the test. Of course. That's why everyone is tested at the same time.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#689This thread, more than any I have read on Hacker News shows the greatest variation of opinion, and the least ability for us to have common agreement upon terms, normative behaviours, standards of judgement or goals. Sadly, education really is a mess. I think it reflects the schisms within wider society. After 30 years in and out of "academia" I am exasperated and despondent at the state of affairs and what I consider…
I'm curious, what changes in governance and funding to higher ed institutions would you change? What did you teach/study?
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#690Earlier quoted context omitted.
> HOW do you measure knowledge? This is not the issue, this is the root cause of the issue. You DON'T measure knowledge. You should measure the satisfaction of the students. Because the most valuable asset a developed country needs to protect is the will of the members of their society to keep improving and learning. > maybe we should start by rolling back this common conception that when it comes to schools, everyon…
>This is not the issue, this is the root cause of the issue. >You DON'T measure knowledge. >You should measure the satisfaction of the students. >Because the most valuable asset a developed country needs to protect is the will of the members of their society to keep improving and learning. What is satisfaction going to get you? As a student, I would have been very satisfied to have great marks while enjoying each nig…
> As a student, I would have been very satisfied to have great marks
that's the wrong way to look at it.
As a student you would have been very satisfied to have recognition for your hard work (something that rarely happens in most school systems I know)
You switched cause and effect.
> while enjoying each night of the week, unfortunately I had to work and skip parties
So you were getting satisfaction from doing it, or you would have skipped studying to go to parties.
Which is what I did, I had great marks and went to parties to reward myself.