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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#641

Post by bradleyjg »

hnarn wrote: post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

and then listen to the teachers and academics

Should we also always listen to the car mechanics, used car salesmen, and cops because after all they are the experts?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#642

Post by andreskytt »

This is why I do not teach on graduate level. There is only so much I’m willing to do to drag some damn sod kicking and screaming through the content. There is only so much effort I’m willing to put into engaging people who actively do not want to be engaged.

Also, I have a trauma from a calculus exam back in my day. Writen exam, physcial classroom, first year students. The professor hands out the exam, then proceeds to smile, go “i’m gonna get a coffee” and leave. Yay, let’s look things up! In about 3 minutes all of us realized there is nothing to look up. The questions were constructed in a fashion that you could only answer them if you understood the material. Also, any plagiarism would have been obvious. Besides, none of the questions seemed to have _a_ correct answer.

I cannot compose such exams. Therefore I keep an eye out for obvious things but generally assume my students either are motivated enough or are not worth the time to chase after them. I do my best to keep them interested, though. As to grading, I do oral exams over video calls. Takes about 8 min per person and this is where they can’t cheat. They either understand or it’s obvious they don’t.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#643

Post by forinti »

DeathArrow wrote: post #620
hnarn wrote: post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

There are markets for a wide range of abilities.

Even in medicine, the first triage will probably be done by a nurse, then a doctor, finally a specialist.

You don't need a CS PhD for most of the work done with computers and it would be unrealistic and uneconomical to require such a high standard everywhere.

People make a good living customizing WordPress sites and the buyers get good value from it.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#644

Post by jrumbut »

tomerv wrote: post #543

I had to stop in the middle of the article due to all the annoying animations. But something that stood out to me is this: > For consequences, I came up with a three strikes and you are out rule. and then > I wasn’t ready to inform them about what was going on until I had processed all of the facts, so I just pressed on with the lectures. My goal was to have all of the forms filled out and emailed before the next mid…

The professor sets up the expectation they are going to come down hard on everyone but ends up putting in an obscene amount of work to give almost everyone a chance to succeed.

After the halfway point they tilt strongly from justice to mercy and ethics education.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#645

Post by Hendrikto »

ahzhou wrote: post #623
hnarn wrote: post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

Scaling solutions invariably rely on parents. Ignoring parents seem like a great way to design broken systems.

Now you increased the burden by a factor of 3…

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#646

Post by lou1306 »

vxNsr wrote: post #618
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #492

My sister works with an institution that gives professional development and certification courses for financial institutions. Being the heavily regulated industry that it is, and that fact that in some places you can't sell mortgages unless your staff are certified, you can imagine the exams are scrutinized for any cheating. Anyway, last month, some ditzy 20-something banker posted up on TikTok her scheme to cheat on…

It’s so odd to see people expose themselves on Tiktok like that. It’s very clearly a public forum, I don’t use it but based on all the videos that have been shared with me off-platform I assume there isn’t even a way to set privacy settings, so all videos are all public. And yet people regularly share things they’ve recorded themselves that they are then embarrassed by or claim they’re being doxxed when the video get…

This is also what hit me while reading the OP. The students were cheating on a Whatsapp group their own teacher was a member of.

I could perhaps turn a blind eye to the gross lack of integrity (I wouldn't, but I could); it's the sheer ineptitude that drives me up a wall.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#647

Post by jart »

DeathArrow wrote: post #620
hnarn wrote: post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

Programming isn't a profession. It's just a new form of literacy. A lot of people claim to be able to write, but that doesn't make them writers.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#648

Post by DeathArrow »

moffkalast wrote: post #634
DeathArrow wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

Well it's probably down to the harm done if the standards are lowered vs. the gain. Incompetent doctor? People die. Incompetent chemist? People die, or at least there's substantial material damage. When it comes to mathematicians and physicists they only ever have any real impact when they roll up their sleeves, open matlab or R and turn their theoretical work into something practical. Does that make them programmers…

>Anyway as for us programmers there are very few jobs where a poorly written program will cause anyone any harm especially since it can be reviewed, tested, and corrected before being used for real, unlike a doctor who must use their skills on the fly and get it right first time, every time.

That's as true for any scientific or engineer field, for architects, pianists, lawyers, painters end economists as is for people designing and writing software.

And yet, all those occupations are generally practiced by people with a degree, who did a lot of study and practice. No watching YouTube videos, no 3 week boot camp will lend you a job as a physicist, concert piano player, economist or architect.

Is not that we don't have a high bar in this field, is that we don't have any bar at all. A programmer is a person who calls himself a programmer. Even car mechanics and construction workers are held at much higher standards than this.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#649

Post by jrumbut »

bruce343434 wrote: post #632
AdamH12113 wrote: post #431

>I knew that my students wanted a second chance, I wasn’t sure how many of them would take it. Part of completing the academic integrity assignment was a tacit admission of cheating, and some students seemed set on not admitting to anything. So, I was thrilled when I received the first completed academic integrity assignment. >What did the student have to say? There were many full sentences and as I read them I got t…

Mental illness, trolling, apathy.

Or habit, it's just your writing process at this point.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#650

Post by CPLX »

DeathArrow wrote: post #620
hnarn wrote: post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

Programming is just a specialized form of writing.

A person who writes for a regional trade magazine, a failed novelist, and Shakespeare all considered themselves writers.

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