What struck me the most when reading this, is how long they waited to inform the students they knew cheating was occurring. If they had informed the class earlier, they may have been able to stem the worst of it, rather than letting it become normalised. Still spend the time afterwards to fill out the forms and engage with the relevant students, but don't wait to notify until you think you know everything, because that just leaves time for more shit to happen.
My students cheated... a lot
651–660 of 1001 posts
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#652How exactly was it cheating ? Students were allowed to share questions or answers and they did just that on a WhatsApp group. Did i read something wrong ? I didn't quite get the path that would be considered cheating.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#653Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…
There are markets for a wide range of abilities. Even in medicine, the first triage will probably be done by a nurse, then a doctor, finally a specialist. You don't need a CS PhD for most of the work done with computers and it would be unrealistic and uneconomical to require such a high standard everywhere. People make a good living customizing WordPress sites and the buyers get good value from it.
> Even in medicine, the first triage will probably be done by a nurse, then a doctor, finally a specialist.
For very basic rote queries most pharmacy assistants (who are really just retail staff) will be able to guide you in the right direction too.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#654Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…
> Well, maybe we should start by rolling back this common conception that when it comes to schools, everyone’s opinion matters an equal amount, and then listen to the teachers and academics.
No, we should listen to the people when deciding what the purpose of school should be, THEN refer to the experts on those purposes. Is it teaching random factoids? Making people "cultured"? Separating out people who follow instructions and learn well from those who don't? Introducing habits useful in a workplace? Good habits of thought? Teaching the knowledge required to vote sensibly? To provide some foundational knowledge for later vocational training? To navigate and function in the modern world? Is it just day care for kids?
First decide on the purpose(s) (and their weightings if many) and only then can we have a plan. I think there hasn't been anywhere near enough thought given by most people about what the purpose(s) of schooling is(are).
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#655>I knew that my students wanted a second chance, I wasn’t sure how many of them would take it. Part of completing the academic integrity assignment was a tacit admission of cheating, and some students seemed set on not admitting to anything. So, I was thrilled when I received the first completed academic integrity assignment. >What did the student have to say? There were many full sentences and as I read them I got t…
These people don't know how to do their own work, full stop. I've encountered the type before. They literally wouldn't know what to do.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#656Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> HOW do you measure knowledge? And when you decide how, how do you scale it? This is what makes the problem intractable. Measuring knowledge takes time, lots of time, by a skilled person. That does not scale. Since we need (want) scale we necessarily have to use (ever weaker) proxies for measurement. And if there's one thing we do know, you get exactly what you measure for. Hence, the system is not broken - it's wo…
In the case of testing, it very much can scale. Tests need to be based on long form questions that test comprehensive knowledge. Open book, Open notes, and hell even open-collaboration up to some limit. If a test is already graded on partial credit, which in the field of engineering at least most are, then it's no harder to grade than an equivalent test that has less but longer questions. This obviously doesn't trans…
Tests are a complete waste of time. Nothing in the world of work truly resembles what a test is so why bother testing for it.
Students should be graded on projects and ability to do real things not memorization of a pre-determined set of facts.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#657Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…
> HOW do you measure knowledge?
This is not the issue, this is the root cause of the issue.
You DON'T measure knowledge.
You should measure the satisfaction of the students.
Because the most valuable asset a developed country needs to protect is the will of the members of their society to keep improving and learning.
> maybe we should start by rolling back this common conception that when it comes to schools, everyone’s opinion matters an equal amount, and then listen to the teachers and academics.
pity that academics and teachers often disagree and, most of all, that schools are public and payed by people's taxes in many developed countries in the World, so people have a right to say.
Teachers are not doctors, doctors practice medicine, teachers do no operate in such a stressful environment, they "educate" young people and is is often the case that it means they impose or suggest their opinions (because they can, nothing prevents them) and families see that kind of "education" unfit for their kids.
And they have all the rights in the World to be listened too, even if they are technically wrong or I disagree with them (I completely disagree on catholic schools for example).
The experts are there to find a solution to their problems, not to build hypothetical perfect solutions in a void.
Also: teachers are there because students are forced to go to school, so they serve, they do not lead. In my country (and practically all other countries in Europe) they are like bus drivers, they are fulfilling an obligation required by State laws under the State government but also offering a service the people paid for to the State.
Maybe instead of listening to "our" teachers and academics, we should look at places where the system is proven to work and copy it: see Finland.
CONTROVERSIAL
On a last note, there's a topic I believe it's the most important, that will quite certainly cause uproar.
If your youngest students die in school shot by someone just a bit older than them, the society you live in have failed in every possible way.
The fact that the system is broken is a joke compared to that.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#658Ah cheating ! I did a year abroad in California when I was studying computer science and I remember there was a huge difference between cheating there and cheating in my French school. In the later, we were given harder exercises and asked to deliver a working program with some constraints. This program is then tested and graded by a CI and examined by TAs. Usually TAs would get a cheating report for reused bits of c…
What school in CA was giving multiple choice assignments in a CS class? What you describe in France is exactly how my classes in the US were (at UW Seattle) ~15 years ago.
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Re: My students cheated... a lot
#659Earlier quoted context omitted.
I always felt that my score was my own, and didn't care about comparing against others. Tough to do when you’re sharing a curve with a bunch of cheaters, and the grades matter for your future. I know in the program I attended I was up against a fair few who were taking cognition enhancing drugs, others who had exam copies from prior years to help them prep, and a lot of people who copied each others’ homework. It was…
> Tough to do when you’re sharing a curve with a bunch of cheaters Are curves still that common these days? In my time at university, the only classes that got curved were a couple math classes that were curved in the students' favor.
I think it highly depends on the school and degree. All my math classes and most of my CS classes at Purdue were curved.
Re: My students cheated... a lot
#660I could also talk a lot like this how my students tried to cheat, and how I detected it. 20 years ago. I had to write special programs to detect written cheats. The online cheating during the written exam was easy to detect, the offline not so. But having written this program helped a lot, and I told nobody the details. In the end the cheaters were the minority. But if you allow it to spread, 90% will start cheating.…
Yes COVID online exams were a total disaster. Our institution wanted to keep them this year, but our department pushed back hard for reasons of academic integrity that we needed to move back to in person.