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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#861

Post by pnutjam »

dgfitz wrote: post #844
vmurthy wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a quick read and sounds somewhat better than knee-jerk reactions people might have The 3 policy changes in the paper : ``` Evidence suggests that three priority policies would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates: • Universal background checks; • Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, or serious alcohol-related cri…

> • Universal background checks; Break that one down. Universal for everyone, or just those who want to buy a gun? If I buy a gun because I pass the background check, and then snap and shoot up my place of employ 4 years later, what good was the background check? Who pays for the background check? Who does the background check? What do they check? HIPPA laws would eliminate anything health/medical related. Do they co…

This is a solved problem, other countries do good background checks by requiring a reason for gun ownership. Collecting (maybe you can't buy as much ammo), range club (they need to vouch for you and you buy ammo at the range), hunting (you have a subset of hunting rifles allowed), self-defense (again, how much ammo do you need for self defense).

I'd like to see the Feds designate all schools crime as federal crimes since they interfere with the civil rights of students. Then make school shootings automatic death penalty, unauthorized guns would have a hefty sentence like they did with drug dealers.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#862

Post by pnutjam »

wyager wrote: post #649
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

> It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. I would take anti-gun people more seriously if they actually paid attention to what this entails. For one, anti-gun enthusiast would stop going on about "assault rifles", because only around 200 people a year in the US are killed by rifle homicides. It's totally negligible. Less frequent than blunt instrument homicides. Yet, that's…

There are plenty of people advocating for limits on ammunition, or other reasonable stuff; but go ahead with your strawman.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#863

Post by pnutjam »

dgfitz wrote: post #847
paulryanrogers wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you have to eat an elephant one bite at a time. If guns weren't such a charged issue then more of us would advocate to directly outlaw private gun ownership. Guns add little value to people's lives and are likely to amplify poor decisions into death and serious injury.

> If guns weren't such a charged issue then more of us would advocate to directly outlaw private gun ownership. Surely you're aware of the second amendment. I'm not sure how your proposition and said amendment can live in the paradigm.

Tiered gun ownership. You can own revolvers, non-semi automatic rifles at the base tier. You also need to file a reason for gun ownership and accept liability for misuse of your firearms. Your teenage kid kills himself with your revolver, you're on the hook for manslaughter.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#864

Post by foxyv »

Gatsky wrote: post #481
jonp888 wrote: post #40

As a foreigner, I do not see it as productive to seek any explanation or expect any reaction when yet another news story like this comes along. It's clear that this is the way Americans wish to live, and it is their perogative to do so.

I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country, and probably many other Americans. But these people, who are not in fact nuts or cretinous, actually believe this and consider it of paramount importance. In one sense, the point can't be argued. My view: If the US population…

Schools are already pretty buttoned up. But you would be hard pressed to secure them to the point where a shooter couldn't just blow away the first guard and walk right in. Similar to the grocery store shooting.

Even prisons need huge sally ports and clear zones to prevent stuff like ram raids and car bombs. Securing EVERY school this way would be nearly impossible. Especially since we can barely staff them in the first place.

The terrorist always has the advantage of picking the least fortified target. In addition they have the drop on the defenders. So unless we have teams of armed and armored QRF guards in ready rooms and a single entry gate at EVERY school we're still going to be vulnerable.

Then, even after we secure every school, the terrorist just waits at the first bus stop, walks on the opening doors, and then kills a busload of kids.

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/teen-school-bus-shooti...

If we couldn't stop it in Iraq and Afghanistan with trillions of dollars of military hardware and surveillance, I don't seeing domestic terrorism being much easier. Especially with the prevalence of firearms and explosives in the United States.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#865

Post by pnutjam »

injb wrote: post #858
fredgrott wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some points of interest: -60 percent or more US states have no gun registration, I know as I live in Indiana which changed to a no gun registration state despite objections from their own citizens and cops. -Among religious right guns are seen as a male status symbols -Can we cure this economically by requiring liability insurance in addition to gun registration? It work by, if you have a past history of danger signs…

>>I know as I live in Indiana which changed to a no gun registration state When was there ever gun registration in Indiana?

Never, he means "constitutional carry" which is also a (tm) term from the NRA that really means, no permit needed to carry guns around. The police love this by the way (not).

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#866

Post by lliamander »

rswail wrote: post #589
lliamander wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are (conservatively) hundreds of thousands of defensive gun uses per year. Many just involve presenting or brandishing the gun without having to use it. Could you look someone in the face who has used a gun to protect themselves or their family and tell them they will need to give up that gun for "public safety"?

Absolutely. Nowhere else in the civilized world do people rely on having a gun to "protect themselves or their family". Perhaps you need to look at why, in your society, there are so many "opportunities" for "defensive gun uses".

> Absolutely. Nowhere else in the civilized world do people rely on having a gun to "protect themselves or their family"

Of course you cannot rely on something you are not allowed to have in the first place. Those individuals are still vulnerable if they were presented with an imminent deadly force threat.

> Perhaps you need to look at why, in your society, there are so many "opportunities" for "defensive gun uses".

Of course! that's a very interesting subject in itself. The widespread ownership of guns is not itself the cause.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#867

Post by pnutjam »

idiotsecant wrote: post #664
fredgrott wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some points of interest: -60 percent or more US states have no gun registration, I know as I live in Indiana which changed to a no gun registration state despite objections from their own citizens and cops. -Among religious right guns are seen as a male status symbols -Can we cure this economically by requiring liability insurance in addition to gun registration? It work by, if you have a past history of danger signs…

I am deeply supportive of the second amendment but liability insurance for guns seems like a fantastic idea to me. Love in rural Montana and own a long rifle for hunting? You insurance is quite cheap. Live in Brooklyn, are 17 years old, and own a handgun? Quite expensive. Unfortunately like automobiles all this would due is punish the honest people. The people who most should have this insurance just wouldn't buy it.

It would make it easier to get guns off the street if you could confiscate uninsured weapons and hold them until proof of insurance.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#869

Post by nradov »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #707
dgfitz wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking to my wife about this the other night and we came to the same conclusions as the points you made. What we posit at this point is: what didn’t exist in 1969? Social media. The internet. Legislation won’t change anything. Proponents of stricter gun control are being idealistic. Having kids in school right now, we are both quite concerned about the current state of affairs when it comes to school shootings…

>> what didn’t exist in 1969? Mass distribution/encouragement of antidepressants.

There is evidence that some antidepressants cause "violent suicidal preoccupation". But it's unclear whether that is a significant factor behind the increase in mass shootings.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.147.2.2...

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#870

Post by zbobet2012 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #744
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #701

Step 1: repeal the Second Amendment. There's never going to be useful progress here until America unsticks from the idea that the right to arm yourself belongs in the same category as the right to free speech or due process.

Enforce the Second Amendment. It starts with "A well regulated militia..." A well regulated militia has absolutely no relationship to selling assault weapons to teenagers and/or fantasists. There is no constitutional "right to bear arms" outside of that context. And while that's being clarified, it would be also be good to investigate the NRA's Russian money problem. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/27/nr…

Well-regulated meant well equiped when the constitution was signed. That's where "regulars" comes from in military usage. This was addressed in heller by a liberal majority supreme court: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Hell...
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