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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#651

Post by andyjohnson0 »

MathCodeLove wrote: post #626
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to claim that our gun laws are the result of a takeover by "a minority of radical extermists" is ridiculous Why is it ridiculous? Where are your sources for that?

The fact that the majority of Americans have voted time and time again to get our gun laws to where they are today is my source. It's not "extremism" if it wins by popular vote.

> The fact that the majority of Americans have voted time and time again to get our gun laws to where they are today is my source.

Your gun laws are made by politicians who are elected for a wide variety of reasons, not just their stance on firearms. So I think its rather a stretch to say that you have the gun laws that you have due to them being the will of the majority. In fact, according to Gallup, the majority in the US (over many decades) want stricter gun control [1, particularly the second chart].

(And I'm sure the $190 million [2] that gun-rights lobby groups have spent in over the last 24 years contributed to the laws being the way they are.)

> It's not "extremism" if it wins by popular vote.

That sounds worryingly like the usual justification for the Tyranny of the Majority to me. Not everything that is popular is unextreme or justified - and history is full of instances where societies have ended up in a hole due to this type of reasoning. Democracy isn't just about voting, its about to manage differences.

[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

[2] https://fortune.com/2022/05/25/nra-contributions-politicians...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#652

Post by christophilus »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #593

As a non-American I found Heather Cox-Richardson's recent substack newsletter post [1] to be useful in understanding how the US has got to this point. She's a history professor at Boston College and she does a good job of describing how gun ownership and control came to be (intentionally) politicised, and how the NRA's role has changed over time. Honestly, I don't see how the US is ever going to dig itself out of thi…

Regardless of the gun issue, there’s a glaring issue that seems more obvious to me: mental health. The solution seems to be a much better mental health system and safety net. If we got rid of all the guns in the world, psychopaths would make pipe bombs, etc. Getting rid of guns would help, no doubt. It would add friction to the process of pulling off massacres. But the real, root problem seems to me that we have completely gutted our mental healthcare system.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#653

Post by shreyshnaccount »

DeathArrow wrote: post #519
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

Before fire arms being invented people took other's lives with knives, swords or clubs. Or poison. Or bare hands. What makes you think that not owning a gun will make people less murderous?

Their argument is gonna be that people will find other ways to kill. Maybe invest in a system that makes people less likely to murder an innocent croud? Wonder what could do that... Better education? Better mental health facilities? Lesser access to the easy people kill machine?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#654

Post by gmadsen »

scotty79 wrote: post #609
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

Or just tax bullets and gunpowder so they cost $10k per shot.

ah so the ruling class with be armed, while the rest are not. sounds great

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#655

Post by nso »

amelius wrote: post #642
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

If at all, perhaps allow geo-fenced guns, which don't work in and around schools?

Or Walmart. Or churches. Or music festivals. Or your workplace, so all workplaces. Or your grandma's house.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#656

Post by JohnWhigham »

christophilus wrote: post #647
JofArnold wrote: post #643

What are guns bringing to the table that makes them so precious? At the very least they don't seem to be capable of feeding people nor preventing attempted insurrections nor preventing innocent people being killed by the authorities. In the situations they are used for self-preservation they are only done so because the adversary has/may themselves have a gun. It defies logic; unless I'm missing something crucial is…

The US is an independent country (as opposed to a British colony) purely due to the fact that we had lots of individuals with guns who could be organized into a rebel army. (And the help of foreign arms.) I think that is why guns are so precious in the US psyche. It’s also why guns are enshrined in the constitution. There’s disagreement on why the constitution left the arming of militias up to “the people”, but I’m o…

it was meant to facilitate another American revolution (against our own government should it turn tyrannical).

"Was" is the key word now. People have become so indoctrinated and addicted to 24/7 news cycle that they'll more readily use them against their own neighbor than the real source of the problem (government/corporation collusion).

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#657

Post by IAmGraydon »

simon1ltd wrote: post #412
School-Cotton wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that this is the way Americans wish to live That’s not clear at all. The US has more anti-gun-violence activists than anywhere else in the world. There is some amount of friction, different in each country but not zero anywhere, between “what people want” and “what is the law”. Do you think North Koreans prefer living under a corrupt dictatorship? Why don’t they just make the dictatorship illegal? That’s…

I don't want gun violence, but I 100% want the 1986 National Firearm Act repealed. I believe fully automatic assault weapons and machine guns should be available for purchase, new, just like any other weapon. (Fully automatic weapons are legal to buy and own right now in the US, if you pay a $200 stamp tax and wait 9 months for the ATF to process the paperwork, but you can only buy "NFA" regulated machine guns that w…

So what you want is the ability to kill large numbers of people quickly and efficiently, correct?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#658

Post by flaviut »

sb057 wrote: post #435
librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

>People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. This is extraordinarily rare. >People shouldn't point a gun at someone unless their life is in danger and they're prepared to take a life, but they do and people get shot by accident, or road rage turns deadly. Brandishing weapons is illegal in every state and not pointing the muzzle of…

> Estimates over the past two decades suggest that 200,000 to 500,000 guns are stolen each year in the United States.

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/32630640/5385318...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#659

Post by fredgrott »

librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

Some points of interest:

  -60 percent or more US states have no gun registration, I know as I live in Indiana which changed to a no gun registration state despite objections from their own citizens and cops.

  -Among religious right guns are seen as a male status symbols

  -Can we cure this economically by requiring liability insurance in addition to gun registration?  It work by, if you have a past history of danger signs then you would be accessed via insurance companies the largest liability insurance price of owning a gun. Similar to vehicle registration and liability insurance

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#660

Post by shreyshnaccount »

Thorentis wrote: post #202

I honestly think precedent and copy-cat syndrome are hugely to blame. "Shooting up a school" has just become synonymous with going on a shooting rampage. How do we go back from this? Even if we ban guns, how do we stop the determined from getting their hands on a gun so that they can shot up a school? It think it's incredibly tragic that we have gotten to the point where killing multiple primsry school aged children…

I blame the media. Everything is just another storyline for reactions. Don't romanticise it. In any way. Because you dont know what glory looks like to a school shooter.
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