Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#431

Post by mdorazio » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #353

chmod600 wrote: post #340

An otherwise informative article, but using the term "military-grade" seems out of place. The term has little meaning. You could call socks "military-grade" as well, and the only meaning that it really conveys is that it was cheap and barely functional enough to win a contract. And AR15s are cheap. A lot of plastic and aluminum. You could say that's a problem, if you want. But that line of argument doesn't seem to le…

I think in this context it is used more to refer to something that ‘has functionalities that no civilian would ever need’.

That doesn't really make sense, though. The entire point of the 2nd amendment is to allow the rapid formation of a militia to protect against tyranny, oppression, foreign aggression, etc. So "military grade" is exactly what you want citizen weaponry to be... I.e., civilians don't need those functions until they really do.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#432

Post by merek » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

calvinmorrison wrote: post #332

elementalest wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. When compared to places like Australia, where guns are highly regulated and barely anyone owns a gun, such that there have been no mass shootings for 35 years, the solution really is obvious.

> the solution really is obvious. Well, from a programmers perspective - it's all about what you are optimizing for. We can end all car related deaths as well by outlawing all automotive vehicles. We can eliminate or curb most sexual diseases by regimenting who one can have sex with. We can end homelessness, by quartering local vagrants in the homes of the citizenry. Solutions are easy. Side effects are less so. If w…

Well, from a different programmer's perspective, ideal scenarios ("ending" or "eliminating" bad things) are rarely a reality.

We can reduce car related deaths by regulating automotive vehicles and driving behavior. Speed limits, seatbelts, max BAC...

We can reduce sexual diseases by educating people on safe practice.

We can reduce homelessness through welfare systems.

And based on the experiences in virtually every other first world country, the US can probably reduce gun-related deaths with tighter regulations on gun ownership.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#433

Post by Reason077 » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #358

beloch wrote: post #83

Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation. Gun ownership is also high in Canada. In terms of guns per capita, the U.S. is #1 by a long shot, but Canada is #7 [1]. In Canada, guns owned per capita is one third of what it is in the U.S.. Canada also has mass shootings. The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the…

"Where many U.S. states permit concealed carry of handguns, handguns are virtually illegal to carry in Canada. Transporting them from your home to the range is legal, but they must be unloaded, locked, and permits are required for the transport." I see no mechanism by which those laws would reduce mass shootings. A mass shooter would simply ignore them. The other policies you mention may be more relevant, but it goes…

> “I see no mechanism by which those laws would reduce mass shootings. A mass shooter would simply ignore them.”

And yet, there does seem to be a strong correlation between “countries with stricter gun control laws” and “countries that have low rates of gun-related deaths and homicides”.

Canada has between 6-8X fewer gun fatalities per capita compared to the United States - both homicides and unintentional/accidental gun death rates are much lower. [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#434

Post by merek » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:50 AM UTC

slagfart wrote: post #338

calvinmorrison wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the solution really is obvious. Well, from a programmers perspective - it's all about what you are optimizing for. We can end all car related deaths as well by outlawing all automotive vehicles. We can eliminate or curb most sexual diseases by regimenting who one can have sex with. We can end homelessness, by quartering local vagrants in the homes of the citizenry. Solutions are easy. Side effects are less so. If w…

What would the side effects of lower gun ownership be?

The King of England, Tony Blair, could start shoving you around.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#435

Post by sb057 » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:50 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #89

It's time we start legislating based on empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals. Yes, if everyone was responsible perhaps it would be OK for all of us to own firearms. But so many people are utterly irresponsible, and guns make that irresponsibility lethal. People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child. People shouldn't point a gun…

>People should safely store their fire-arms, but they don't and guns get stolen and sold illegally, or used by their teenage child.

This is extraordinarily rare.

>People shouldn't point a gun at someone unless their life is in danger and they're prepared to take a life, but they do and people get shot by accident, or road rage turns deadly.

Brandishing weapons is illegal in every state and not pointing the muzzle of a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy is basic gun safety.

>Not to mention the suicides. If you own a gun ideation can turn into action in less than 30 seconds and it can seem like a painless, easy way to go.

There's no evidence to suggest that gun ownership causes higher levels of suicide. Additionally, suicide isn't a crime.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#436

Post by calvinmorrison » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #354

calvinmorrison wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the solution really is obvious. Well, from a programmers perspective - it's all about what you are optimizing for. We can end all car related deaths as well by outlawing all automotive vehicles. We can eliminate or curb most sexual diseases by regimenting who one can have sex with. We can end homelessness, by quartering local vagrants in the homes of the citizenry. Solutions are easy. Side effects are less so. If w…

> If we are optimizing against the #1 all time cause of non natural death in the world - Democide - an armed populace does wonders. This sounds intuitively correct, but I wonder if we have seen any evidence of this. If I think of the Holocaust would have happened if the Jews in Germany had been armed I'm not convinced either way. I can see arguments that it might have prevented it but also that it might have accelera…

It's not a catch all against government, but a tool that equalizes each man for each man. In fact, each individual, shown by these attacks on schools, show how one person can have an outsized effect.

But more to your point -- I'll steal this quote:

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?

Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?...

The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

If we didn’t love freedom enough. And even more - we had no awareness of the real situation… We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#437

Post by Grimburger » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

yesenadam wrote: post #424

quantumwannabe wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is blatantly not true. There have been several mass shootings in Australia such as the 2002 Monash University shooting and the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis since Port Arthur, which inspired the modern Australian gun control system. Port Arthur was also 25 years ago, not 35. Australia also only had a handful of mass shootings before Port Arthur; mass shootings have never been a major issue in Australia. https://en.…

> 2014 Sydney hostage crisis A mass shooting in which, by the sound of it, a gunman killed one hostage? Then when "police...stormed the café ...[a hostage] was killed by a police bullet ricochet. ..[The gunman] was also killed. Three other hostages and a police officer were injured by police gunfire" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindt_Cafe_siege In the 2002 Monash shooting, 2 people died. Seems like there hasn't bee…

The GP link was a terrible source for their point.

If you look at the numbers there over the years for actual shootings it's basically a bad weekend in Chicago.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#438

Post by School-Cotton » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:52 AM UTC

pmlamotte wrote: post #425

School-Cotton wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. In practice, how do you plan on achieving this? What steps can we take to “rewrite the constitution” (other than an actual revolution overthrowing the current political system, which… would require guns and even then would probably be impossible)

It's not necessarily rewriting the constitution, and could take decades, but ensuring liberal judges get a majority on the supreme court is all it really takes in order to reverse the 5-4 D.C. v. Heller (2008) decision that first affirmed the 2nd amendment grants individuals the right to handguns for private use outside a militia. It's congressional legislation from there. Roe v. Wade already showed it's possible to…

Indeed, you’re right. The Supreme Court is the only remotely plausible way policy on gun control, or any other cultural hot-button issue, can ever change in the US.

However, given the present composition of the Supreme Court, it’s reasonable to assume that they will not do anything meaningful on this subject for decades, at least.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#439

Post by prawn » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:52 AM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #13

bifrost wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not wrong.

He is absolutely, 100% wrong. It may be true for mass shootings, but not for overall gun violence. A lot of gun deaths are suicides. Those are mental illness. But there are categories that are just idiots with guns, like people who get into fights outside bars. There are also a surprising number of men who murder a woman who is pregnant with their child because they don't want the baby to be born. Sometimes murder is…

And an element of desperation or poor impulse control (hormones raging in teenagers, etc).

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#440

Post by Vecr » Thu, May 26, 2022, 4:56 AM UTC

taeric wrote: post #118

bifrost wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are suggesting is illegal. Its illegal to license a right. We shouldn't penalize the hundreds of millions of legal gun owners in the US because we're unable to catch psychopaths before they kill people.

This feels silly. Explosives are general arms for an armed service. Good luck stockpiling c4. Or having a military vehicle. Cannons that can shoot depleted uranium? Surface to air missiles? All arms that would be needed to fend off a real threat. So the idea that guns are special is idiotic. You can already get in trouble for using a gun with too many rounds when bird hunting. Is that actually illegal?

Yes, all those bans are illegal. If I want to mount a robotic machine gun turret behind my front door, I should be able to without anyone complaining.