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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#341

Post by _carbyau_ »

steinjones wrote: post #180
beloch wrote: post #83

Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation. Gun ownership is also high in Canada. In terms of guns per capita, the U.S. is #1 by a long shot, but Canada is #7 [1]. In Canada, guns owned per capita is one third of what it is in the U.S.. Canada also has mass shootings. The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the…

Correlation is not causation. How many times do people need to hear it?

Correct! Correlation is not causation.

But it is a pretty serious hint worth checking to see if a causal link is there.

Outright dismissal of a lead in resolving a problem is NOT helping anyone.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#342

Post by jgon »

beloch wrote: post #83

Canada is the U.S.'s neighbour and is probably closer, culturally, than any other nation. Gun ownership is also high in Canada. In terms of guns per capita, the U.S. is #1 by a long shot, but Canada is #7 [1]. In Canada, guns owned per capita is one third of what it is in the U.S.. Canada also has mass shootings. The annual deaths from mass shootings per capita in Canada is 0.032, which is about one third that of the…

This has a lot of good context, but one thing it misses is the cultural impact of being a country next to the US. The deadliest shooting in Canadian history occurred in Nova Scotia in 2020. The guns he used were not legal for him to possess, and crucially all but one of the guns he used in his rampage was acquired from America ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks#Acqui... )

Here is another from the conservative newspaper The National Post (aka I am not sourcing from a place likely to be incredibly biased against guns) reporting on the police chief of Toronto stating that a large majority of the guns used in violent crime in the city are illegally imported from US: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/guns-used-in-crimes-a...

We have other people in this thread using the example of Australia and asking what the difference is and I would state that a large portion of it is simply that Australia is surrounded by an ocean and Canada is right next to the US. As long as we have that anchor dragging us down its always going to be difficult to make major progress on gun crime.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#343

Post by zmgsabst »

slagfart wrote: post #338
calvinmorrison wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the solution really is obvious. Well, from a programmers perspective - it's all about what you are optimizing for. We can end all car related deaths as well by outlawing all automotive vehicles. We can eliminate or curb most sexual diseases by regimenting who one can have sex with. We can end homelessness, by quartering local vagrants in the homes of the citizenry. Solutions are easy. Side effects are less so. If w…

What would the side effects of lower gun ownership be?

You see an increase in crimes against people when the equalizing force of guns is removed: assaults, muggings, home invasions, rapes, etc. Guns can (and do) allow smaller men, women, and the elderly to defend themselves with lethal force — against stronger aggressors.

You displace guns primarily harming suicidal people and criminals into harms to innocent victims, via unchecked violence — potentially without reducing suicides.

You also see an increase in totalitarian behavior, eg, the Australian lockdowns compared to the US lockdowns.

And the argument for removing rifles ignores that they’re rarely used in crimes — more people are killed by hammers or fists than rifles.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#344

Post by [deleted] »

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

[deleted]

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#345

Post by bicx »

ch4s3 wrote: post #320
mahastore wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Also any argument like "mental illness" or "ease of access to firearms" needs to explain why the same does not apply to the rest of the world - Well Afghanistan people have access to lot of guns , lots of it and maybe even tanks. But they don't go to school that much. And in Serbia the population is thinly spread across vast swatches of ice. Not exactly LA. Lets simply stop talking and just bring a bill to buy bac…

There aren’t really any automatic weapons in the US, unless they were manufactured before a certain date and you have a particular hard to acquire license. You may mean semi-automatic. I assume you don’t know many gun owners. I grew on a farm in the south and Incan assure you that when people there say “come and take them,” they mean it. At this point you’re talking about a lot of very armed veterans and hunters, it…

I'm also from a smaller city in the south. I can also confirm that when people say "come and take them," they are serious. No one is going to be interested in a buy-back program, and a lot of people will defend their household if they know authorities really are coming to take their guns. A lot of men in southern culture would feel comparatively helpless if they knew they couldn't defend their home with a gun. Not saying it's logical, but that's the mentality.

Ironically, my home town in TN is a lot safer than where I now live in the Bay Area, where legal gun ownership is restricted and frowned upon. I don't think that's _why_ it's less safe here, but it's interesting to see the opposing mentalities.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#346

Post by temp8964 »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #165
krnlpnc wrote: post #79

What if guns were treated similarly to cars? Mandatory training, License w/ renewals, registration w/ renewals, insurance mandatory, yearly inspection mandatory, etc. Personally I feel people should be able to defend themselves while at the same time deterred from stockpiling and accessing mass casualty capable arms.

What if cars were legislated like guns? Mufflers would be illegal. If you are driving between states, you need to check to see if your driver's license is accepted by each state you go through -- and some counties. Adjustable car seats are illegal. Automatic transmissions are illegal. Building your own car would be illegal. If your truck is too short, it's a felony. Unless you call your truck a car, and never put any…

But you need multiple steps including the driver’s test to get a driver’s license, then you can drive. In this recent shooting, it’s obvious the shooter got his guns way too easily. I am pro-gun but I think you should be required to have a gun license first before you can buy a gun. And a mental health test and safety test should be passed to get the license.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#347

Post by scollet »

bifrost wrote: post #4
jasonhansel wrote: post #3

For context: Texas Gov. Greg Abbott recently attributed all gun crime to mental illness, saying at a press conference that "anybody who shoots somebody else has a mental health problem, period."

He's not wrong.

Of all the people in Texas, Abbott is likely in the top 10 of most wrong.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#348

Post by remarkEon »

jstream67 wrote: post #324
krnlpnc wrote: post #79

What if guns were treated similarly to cars? Mandatory training, License w/ renewals, registration w/ renewals, insurance mandatory, yearly inspection mandatory, etc. Personally I feel people should be able to defend themselves while at the same time deterred from stockpiling and accessing mass casualty capable arms.

Nobody was talking about reducing access to cars after that guy ran over a ton of old folks in Kenosha a couple months back. In fact no one is talking about it at all as he does not fit the correct political narrative

That was in Waukesha. Kenosha was where the Kyle Rittenhouse event(s) occurred.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#349

Post by scollet »

School-Cotton wrote: post #336
iamgopal wrote: post #269

Guns should be removed in its totality. After that if anybody wants they should allow to hold data based intellectual discussion about meaning of the constitution etc. If while we discuss all constitutional rights that were designed almost half millennia ago, people are getting killed, than drastic measures even if temporarily, are necessary.

It’d be great if guns didn’t exist, but since this would require totally abolishing the current political, legal, and cultural system of the US and replacing it with something new, it’s hard to see how to get there in practice.

By doing just that.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#350

Post by doodlebugging »

blounderdoo wrote: post #247
artificialLimbs wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no one has said it yet and I don’t have a precious study to trot out, but: My >80 year old friend has suggested to me that this kind of problem didn’t exist before we started handing out pharmaceutical drugs of the variety that ‘handle’ mental illness. Sidebar semi-related story time: my wife got her Masters in childhood education and went directly to work for a public high school after. She was a.. I forget, co…

Sorry, no. Precisely nobody employed by a school district is getting involved in medication nor diagnosis for children. Nobody. Not even in Texas, and especially not a new grad with “assistant” in their title. Nurses might dispense prescriptions as prescribed but that is a firm end to the involvement in a child’s medical situation. Your wife’s master’s degree does not permit diagnosis of mental health and suggestion…

I'd like to add another anecdata point. I have lived most of my life in Texas. A couple of my close relatives were born in the mid 80's and started school in the early 90's in the public school system in a medium-sized city in Texas.

At the time there was a lot of discussion about ADHD, the causes, treatments, etc and how to recognize it. Teachers had the authority to remove a child from the classroom if the teacher claimed the child was disruptive. The school would not allow the child to return to class until that kid was no longer disruptive. They used school nurses to make diagnoses of ADHD and to recommend on the official records in the school system that the child be medicated to help them deal with their "learning disability".

Parents needed to schedule appointments with pediatricians or child psychologists so that the kid could be evaluated and if that professional determined the child needed medication to be able to sit still in class, or to be able to sit quietly without talking out of turn then the child was required to take medication, typically Ritalin.

I don't know where you're from but a diagnosis of ADHD back then followed an individual through their entire public school career and teachers absolutely had the right to refuse to have a child labeled "hyperactive" in their classroom unless that child was medicated.

I have no idea how all that ended up as standard procedure. Texas began a decline in the quality of education in their public schools a long time ago and there is no opportunity to arrest that fall without removing most of those currently in office.

Your original poster may not have all his ducks in a row but he at least knows that he has a flock of something that quacks. I may also not have all my facts straight but I know I am pretty close. They are both ordinary adults now in spite of the things they had to go through as students in Texas public schools.

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