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The Economics of Bike Lanes

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81–90 of 203 posts

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#81
post #2

This discussion about the value and use of bike lanes keeps amazing me. It seems many people hold a negative view without having good arguments, almost religiously. Living in the Netherlands, the benefits of separate bike lanes (to point of a separate transit system) are so incredibly obvious. It's not some cultural particularity, it's because cycling has been made easy, nice (most of the time) and safe here. (see ht…

> It seems many people hold a negative view without having good arguments, almost religiously.

I tried discussing the benefits of cycling with a friend. "Bikes actually use as much energy to produce as cars, since they're made of high-tech materials which use a lot of energy in manufacture."

"Whenever I'm stuck in traffic, it's usually down to a cyclist somewhere."

"Having several cars is very environmentally friendly, since you can select the one most suited to your requirements at the time."

And he gets very pissy if I mention I've just completed a 20 mile ride or whatever, seems to think I'm bragging (which I am, sometimes ;) and it makes him a bit insecure. So yes, emotion trumps reason for some people.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#82
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing that causes drivers to seethe with anger like losing whole seconds of their lives to happy people cruising along on bicycles.

The unlimited point-to-point mobility provided by a car allows people to optimize their routines almost down to the second, so losing 30 seconds behind a cyclist can make the difference between being on time and being late. Though this can be disputed, I would argue that aggressively minimizing time spent in transportation (and thus maximizing time spent at work or leisure) is beneficial to the economy and society.

... except I know way too many people who voluntarily subscribe to 50-60 minute commutes in a car instead of simply living closer to work.

Optimizing for less time spent in transportation is nice, but there's a balance - both for yourself and society. A bunch of gas-guzzling one-ton hunks of steel squeezing their way down a packed freeway, with only a single passenger inside each... hardly seems beneficial to the economy, society, or the environment.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, I've decided that automobile drivers just don't belong on the roads. It truly is worse for everyone involved--health of the driver, safety of everyone around them, health of the community, etc. The economic growth issues are also murky.

So what does belong on the roads, oh paragon of wisdom?

A new breakthrough vehicle that runs on facetiousness, maybe.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... all these things would happen way less if there were dedicated bike lanes that were strictly enforced as DEDICATED bike lanes. Next time you're on a busy street with bike lanes, pay attention to the number of double-parked delivery trucks and other stationary non-bike business. These make the road more dangerous and slower (an important factor in route choice) than a non-bike lane street.

I agree that bike lanes have safety problems, but let's not take it out on delivery drivers. Have you ever driven a delivery truck? Quite often there is not physical possibility of legal parking. At some point lanes are going to be blocked, and not just the bike line. The best we can hope for is enough courtesy not to entirely block the street.

"Quite often there is not physical possibility of legal parking."

By the same token, quite often there is not physical possibility of legal cycling OR driving. Courtesy is the solution indeed, yet the rhetoric on the issue seems to point the finger at cyclist more than other parties involved.

The problem with the delivery truck/bus blocking the lane is that its easy and much more safe for a car to take half of the extra lane without obstructing the flow. This is a much more challenging a maneuver on a bike. Finally, these vehicles block the bike lane and then half of the right lane. Imagine if a truck was wide enough to block the entire two-lane roadway and force motor vehicle traffic to precariously dodge traffic going in the opposite direction. Not a bulletproof analogy, but worth considering...

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#85
post #70

In Cassidy's article, he refers to cars as "four-wheel friends." Perhaps he isn't considering this very rationally at all; I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements. Not a strong argument against Cassidy's article, I admit (he's a journalist, his writing style needs to be engaging), but hilarious anyways.

I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements Sure, that's because a bike doesn't promote emotional attachment, unlike a car. A cyclist enjoys biking, but he generally doesn't attribute that enjoyment to his bike -- he would just as happily swap for another, just as I'd throw out my old running shoes and buy a new pair. Car…

Bicycles can promote emotional attachment. I take pride in my bicycles. There are personalizations that I've made that make my bikes unique in my eyes. One of my bikes would be difficult to replace if it were totalled. I know many other cyclists (athletes and otherwise) who are attached to their bikes.

Likewise, I know many people who could care less what kind of car they drive so long as it is clean and runs well.

Some people care about what they use, some people don't.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#86
post #70

In Cassidy's article, he refers to cars as "four-wheel friends." Perhaps he isn't considering this very rationally at all; I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements. Not a strong argument against Cassidy's article, I admit (he's a journalist, his writing style needs to be engaging), but hilarious anyways.

I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements Sure, that's because a bike doesn't promote emotional attachment, unlike a car. A cyclist enjoys biking, but he generally doesn't attribute that enjoyment to his bike -- he would just as happily swap for another, just as I'd throw out my old running shoes and buy a new pair. Car…

Methinks you need to meet more cyclists.

My brother is a (very) avid cyclist - he even names all of his bikes. Hell, he builds them from scratch, hand-picking components, and is meticulous about keeping all of them in tip-top condition constantly.

I don't think one can claim he isn't "attached" to his bike - and I've met his cyclist friends who are similarly reverent about their vehicles of choice. Their attachment to their bikes is about equal to what I see from avid drivers and their meticulously maintained cars.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#87
It's all too common (and easy) to lump cyclists into one group -- generally (in terms of policy and public opinion) in a way that encourages dislike. Cyclists are like any other subset of the population and it's unfair to any group to judge them based on the actions of others. That being that, I don't pretend that there aren't cyclists out there who misbehave -- I'm personally very aware of it because they're often the cause of me being treated badly by cars/drivers. As a cyclist, the most effective way I've found to combat this is to be courteous where it matters most -- generally by waving/nodding when you are given the go ahead to cross an intersection by a driver who has the right-away (or more generally, shown any courtesy on the road).

Now, that doesn't mean I go out of my way to exude a staid nature on the bike; I'm generally riding as fast as I care to or want to -- but the thing about being on a bike is that speed is (generally) physically governed -- I cannot ride any faster than my body allows. And in most pedestrian settings (i.e. without the presence of significant downhill stretches) this will be between 15 and 30mph (Individual TTs in the TDF will maybe see an avg speed of 30-33mph -- wattage and speed way out of the reach for anyone but the strongest riders on the most advanced machines).

I bring this up to make a point, a dangerous cyclist (i.e. the dudes you see running lights and being jerks with disregard to everyone else) is dangerous but only marginally as compared to a dangerous driver. And this is of course due to the fact that cyclists are limited to pedestrian speeds (30mph going all) and constitute a small fraction of the mass of a car (200lbs:3000lbs+). But they are dangerous (especially to pedestrians -- one reason they should never be riding on sidewalks) nonetheless and I'd love for everyone to show a little more common courtesy.

More than that, however, I wish (more) drivers were aware of how threatening they are in their vehicles (sometimes weapons). Never am I more aware of how fragile the balance of life is as when I'm on my bike with an angry driver alongside me verbally berating me. And this is because riding the bike is not as easy as driving a car in the best of times (neither of which is especially difficult) -- but in the worst of times it's much harder. And your being alongside me with your window down is about as bad as they come. Not only do I have to continue navigating the road I now also have to consider you and your intentions. You might just be someone who wants to get something off their chest and be on the their way (still far better to do it when neither of us are moving). Or you might be one of the others who will only find solace once you've swerved at the me or run me off the road (yes, I have been maliciously run off the road; no, it's not so uncommon). So my senses flare and my defensive instincts kick in any time a car rolls up with something to say because the moment you do you change from being a driver of a car to a potentially dangerous and unpredictable stranger with a weapon. I doubt I'm far from the the only one to feel this way based on how inflammatory these situations routinely become. It doesn't help that the law will generally take the side of the driver or find themselves impuissant due to the fact that cars can and do flee the scene with none the wiser (ever try to get a license plate number down from a fleeing vehicle -- they don't need much distance on you to make it hopeless)

Now that being that, I understand how easy it is to lump individuals in as belonging to "that group". Despite the number of mean spirited drivers I've encountered, they stand out only because we tend to overlook all the others who are good spirited (and thus never give you cause to notice or appreciate them -- in fact i've only been caught off guard with a car rolling up with a pleasantry/compliment two times). I personally suspect that the malicious drivers themselves are repeat offenders and are responsible for the vast majority of encounters (i.e. if there are 10,000 drivers in an area, and 100 events occur it implies 1% of drivers were involved; what's more likely is that a repeat offending driver causes multiple events over a certain route or a time period which means only a fraction of 1% of the drivers are involved).

Which means I should respect you as long as you don't threaten me, and you should respect me provided the same. But let me tell you, it takes just about all my willpower to not rip your head off when you confront me in your car while I'm already giving it my best to be courteous and safe; I do give it my best, though.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#88
post #7

I totally agree with the idea in the OP (not that we have much free parking left in Chicago). But I have to get something off my chest, although it's tangential to this post. (I know this will be sacrilege to the many HN bikers but here it goes): First a disclaimer: I, at 40+, cannot ride a bike reliably (yeah, I know, it funny, there's a long backstory), in fact I learned how to ride about 10 years ago, not by apply…

I have not had a car for over 20 years. I've ridden my bike forever - to/from school since I was in grade school. Currently I live in San Francisco which has, some could say, an aggressive bike culture. Sometimes, I am one of those guys and I used to ride in the monthly Critical Mass rides. The fact of the matter is that we live in a pro-car country. California in general is a very pro-car state. The drive in diner w…

If you want car drivers to respect bikers, stop running red lights and stop signs. Since you want to be reckless and ignore safety rules, others would have less regard for your safety. The conserving momentum is just a BS excuse; stopping is for safety overall for everyone involved, not just you. A car can also run through stop sign to conserve momentum and save on gas but for overall safety sake it stops.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#89
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't understand why you are referring to my comment as "biased", I was trying to portray how bikers are seen from the viewpoint of the non-avid-biker pedestrians. Do you think my points were wrong or made-up? If so, it would be more useful to comment on those aspects.

I personally tend to agree with your points, but that aside what I was noticing is you and my parent basically arrive at opposite conclusions with a strong conviction in your beliefs, and "coincidentally" both of your POV's align with your primary, chosen form of transportation. You both make some valid points; I don't use 'bias' to imply you are wrong . Rather, bias affects the process by which you examine and evalu…

I believe you (along with many commentators) assume that my primary mode of transport is driving, since nowhere in my comment I refer to drivers. I was commenting on sharing sidewalks and streets with bikers as a pedestrian. There were many times for me when, at a stop sign, a car stops, I start to cross, and nearly run into a biker who ignored the sign, this is what I was referring to in teh part about stop signs.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, I've decided that automobile drivers just don't belong on the roads. It truly is worse for everyone involved--health of the driver, safety of everyone around them, health of the community, etc. The economic growth issues are also murky.

So what does belong on the roads, oh paragon of wisdom?

I think the point is that msellout feels (please correct), and I'm inclined to agree, that the assumption that cars are entitled on highways but cyclists are not is wrong.

There is probably more benefit in having less cars and more cycles than the converse.

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