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The Economics of Bike Lanes

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Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#61

Post by msellout »

Goronmon wrote: post #45
Jun8 wrote: post #7

I totally agree with the idea in the OP (not that we have much free parking left in Chicago). But I have to get something off my chest, although it's tangential to this post. (I know this will be sacrilege to the many HN bikers but here it goes): First a disclaimer: I, at 40+, cannot ride a bike reliably (yeah, I know, it funny, there's a long backstory), in fact I learned how to ride about 10 years ago, not by apply…

I find the behavior of most bikers in traffic to be dangerous, obnoxious and rude. Bikers often say that they should be treated on par with cars (in matters of passing, etc.), but they themselves operate somewhere between vehicles and pedestrians, combining the worse characteristics of each. I have observed many bikers not to stop at stop signs or red lights, because, you know, they're for cars, jeopardizing pedestri…

Conversely, I've decided that automobile drivers just don't belong on the roads. It truly is worse for everyone involved--health of the driver, safety of everyone around them, health of the community, etc. The economic growth issues are also murky.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#62

Post by Daishiman »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #47
Goronmon wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the behavior of most bikers in traffic to be dangerous, obnoxious and rude. Bikers often say that they should be treated on par with cars (in matters of passing, etc.), but they themselves operate somewhere between vehicles and pedestrians, combining the worse characteristics of each. I have observed many bikers not to stop at stop signs or red lights, because, you know, they're for cars, jeopardizing pedestri…

As a cyclist and a driver, I agree that there are far too many jerks who think it's fine to run red lights if it saves them a little pedaling... but the ones that really get me are people in dark clothing after dark with no lights or helmet pedaling up the sidewalk on the left side of the street behind a row of parked cars and out across an intersection at 15mph... who, when faced with a near-accident, rant about how…

Don't forget the headphones. As a very safety-conscius cyclist, I cringe at other cyclists who wear headphones or anything that artificially reduces hearing.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#63

Post by localtalent »

This is not the place for anecdotal arguments, they aren't productive. Anyone can cite stories of bad behavior on all sides: sidewalk cycling, oblivious jaywalking, and aggressive driving. It's what every cycling article on Gothamist, Streetsblog, and the NY Post stirs up, and I could write out the comments myself and be pretty close to accurate. Nobody wins, and everyone leaves feeling angry - not useful.

The article here is refuting a heavily biased New Yorker piece article by specifically refuting assertions based on fallacious assumptions.

We are where we are - everyone is behaving badly, and all sides are so deeply entrenched in their beliefs the arguments just cause people to dig in further and the ad homs and strawmen appear. HN is better than this.

The situation obviously can't continue, but it's time for a rational discussion of what's most effective, in terms of cost, and transportation efficiency, and safety for the largest number of people.

I'm prepared to have this discussion, and while I'll admit bias in a certain direction on this issue I'm open-minded enough to hear all sides. I'd like others to do the same, and we can all get onto having a fruitful and interesting discussion around solutions.

Some suggestions for potential discussion topics:

- Education/awareness

- Infrastructure costs and benefits (street parking, bike lanes, bus lanes, raised crosswalks, etc)

- Discussion of network effects

- Legislation to punish offenders (relative to cost/potential danger of the offense?)

- Maximum efficiency of moving the largest number of people (measure in average trip time)

- Externalities (pollution, business impact, etc)

- Psychology + behavior understanding and modification

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#64

Post by kamkha »

mrgoldenbrown wrote: post #43
mchanson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Cambridge, MA the police have been enforcing traffic laws with bikers. Dunno what effect it has had, but enforcement, IMHO, as a place in getting bikers to obey the traffic laws. Drivers, on the whole, behave pretty badly too. As a driver, biker, and pedestrian in the Boston area I don't think I would say any of those groups act better than others. Would love separated bike lanes. Biking in the city is very satisf…

I live and bike in Cambridge. We have separated bike lanes in some places, but pedestrians generally don't respect them in my experience. I used to think pedestrians that walked in designated bike lanes just didn't know it was a bike lane. But the lane on Vassar Street has a bike icon every 30 ft or so and is a different color than the rest of the sidewalk. Yet pedestrians still seem to prefer it to "their" sidewalk…

Same goes for Mass Ave. I don't think I've ever seen the bike lane on either side of Mass Ave not blocked by a pedestrian or parked car every couple of blocks.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#65

Post by hugh3 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #44
equalarrow wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not had a car for over 20 years. I've ridden my bike forever - to/from school since I was in grade school. Currently I live in San Francisco which has, some could say, an aggressive bike culture. Sometimes, I am one of those guys and I used to ride in the monthly Critical Mass rides. The fact of the matter is that we live in a pro-car country. California in general is a very pro-car state. The drive in diner w…

The bias in both these comments is so thick I could cut it with a knife. One can barely ride a bicycle; one wishes he didn't own a car.

My perspective: I both cycle and drive quite a lot.

When I'm driving, I hate cyclists, and when I'm cycling I hate drivers. Both groups are filled with complete freaking idiots who shouldn't be allowed onto the roads under any circumstances.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#66

Post by localtalent »

law wrote: post #3

I think by "free," Cassidy means "libre," in that adding bike lanes decreases the number of available parking spaces. If that's the case, Storbeck improperly challenged the basis of Cassidy's cost-benefit scrutiny. The value (intrinsic and extrinsic) of bike lanes isn't in question; rather, Storbeck seems to take exception to the fact that these bike lanes are being constructed and rarely used. On the other hand, for…

It will be bootstrapped here - the bike-sharing program will be injecting 10,000 bikes into the system as of next spring/summer.

And I defy anyone to spend time on a major non-recreational cycling route (Sands Street, 8th Avenue, the Williamsburg Bridge, Prospect Park West) when the weather is pleasant and state that the infrastructure is underutilized. Were it the ghost town that Cassidy and Weinshall claim, the DOT would not be putting in pedestrian safeguards (bollards, the wall at the bottom of the Williamsburg Bridge).

This debate has raged for the better part of this year, and the notion of Prospect Park West residents sitting with golf clickers counting cyclists in the dead of winter and claiming the paths are underutilized is ridiculous.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#67

Post by hugh3 »

mchanson wrote: post #23
Jun8 wrote: post #7

I totally agree with the idea in the OP (not that we have much free parking left in Chicago). But I have to get something off my chest, although it's tangential to this post. (I know this will be sacrilege to the many HN bikers but here it goes): First a disclaimer: I, at 40+, cannot ride a bike reliably (yeah, I know, it funny, there's a long backstory), in fact I learned how to ride about 10 years ago, not by apply…

In Cambridge, MA the police have been enforcing traffic laws with bikers. Dunno what effect it has had, but enforcement, IMHO, as a place in getting bikers to obey the traffic laws. Drivers, on the whole, behave pretty badly too. As a driver, biker, and pedestrian in the Boston area I don't think I would say any of those groups act better than others. Would love separated bike lanes. Biking in the city is very satisf…

I once got a ticket ($140ish) for cruising through a stop sign on a bike. Ever since then, I come to an obnoxious tire-skidding halt at every stop sign before starting up again (and take the opportunity to swear at those who don't obey the rules).

The trouble is that I'm currently in America, where traffic planners have apparently decided that every goddamn intersection should have a four-way stop sign. This, to me, makes no sense -- put in roundabouts, or a Give Way sign going two out of four ways, to make traffic flow efficient. But anyway, it makes cycling anywhere a huge pain.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#68

Post by sliverstorm »

Jun8 wrote: post #52
sliverstorm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bias in both these comments is so thick I could cut it with a knife. One can barely ride a bicycle; one wishes he didn't own a car.

Couldn't understand why you are referring to my comment as "biased", I was trying to portray how bikers are seen from the viewpoint of the non-avid-biker pedestrians. Do you think my points were wrong or made-up? If so, it would be more useful to comment on those aspects.

I personally tend to agree with your points, but that aside what I was noticing is you and my parent basically arrive at opposite conclusions with a strong conviction in your beliefs, and "coincidentally" both of your POV's align with your primary, chosen form of transportation.

You both make some valid points; I don't use 'bias' to imply you are wrong. Rather, bias affects the process by which you examine and evaluate your points.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#69

Post by Tangurena »

afterburner wrote: post #9
law wrote: post #3

I think by "free," Cassidy means "libre," in that adding bike lanes decreases the number of available parking spaces. If that's the case, Storbeck improperly challenged the basis of Cassidy's cost-benefit scrutiny. The value (intrinsic and extrinsic) of bike lanes isn't in question; rather, Storbeck seems to take exception to the fact that these bike lanes are being constructed and rarely used. On the other hand, for…

Even if free means what you posit, it comes to the same: market pressures that make building parking garages so lucrative will provide the need if street parking is replaced by bike lanes. Also, reread the part about how creating a viable cycling path network, which is safe for the cyclist throughout, will attract many more cyclist to the road, as it has in other cities. The current number of cyclists in NYC is not n…

Parking garages are not lucrative. The cost to build a parking garage runs $20k-30k per parking space. Building one underground adds an additional $10k/space. In contrast, a parking stall on a flat slab is going to run only a few hundred dollars (in Denver, the cost for thick slabs you can park semis on runs about $800/parking stall).

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#70

Post by hugh3 »

afterburner wrote: post #13

In Cassidy's article, he refers to cars as "four-wheel friends." Perhaps he isn't considering this very rationally at all; I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements. Not a strong argument against Cassidy's article, I admit (he's a journalist, his writing style needs to be engaging), but hilarious anyways.

I don't think I've heard that kind of touchy-feely attachment to their vehicle of choice from even the most hippie-ish pro-cycling movements

Sure, that's because a bike doesn't promote emotional attachment, unlike a car. A cyclist enjoys biking, but he generally doesn't attribute that enjoyment to his bike -- he would just as happily swap for another, just as I'd throw out my old running shoes and buy a new pair.

Cars, however, promote more emotional bonding. I think because the car moves under its own power it feels more like it's alive. I press the accelerator, the car does what I tell it, and we form a bond just as a rider forms a bond with his horse. On a pushbike you're always keenly aware that it's you who is doing all the work, and the bike is just a tool.

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