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I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

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141–150 of 245 posts

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#141
post #6

You sometimes see people ask fairly simple Python questions on Stack Overflow, that could be solved by five lines of plain Python, and be answered with some Pandas magic incantation that happens to do what they want with one call. I always find this a bit sad, because it seems to take away the idea that programming is about assembling composable parts, replacing it by a search for the right magic thing from a box of…

Yes! Plain python is almost always crystal clear and self explanatory. But "idiomatic python" which people seem to compete to be "more idiomatic than thou" is none of these things. It's actually a barrier to learning the language.

Someone pointed out to me recently as you say, the idiomatic python sometimes seems like more of a barrier. It takes more time to parse and grok, for their human brain, a for loop with a zip having multiple interables vs nested for loops. I've been thinking about this. So take, a list comprehension, supposedly better than a for loop at times. The canted take would be that list comprehensions are said in a way of what a human wants, the for loop is more how to do it, and the former is better ipso facto. And I think I've come to appreciate this difference and preference.

My conclusion is that I rather like the opinionated take of python. It might take a liiiiittle bit of a learning curve, but you do come to appreciate the zen of choices they've arrived at after a few decades of going at it.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you consider a "design" to result from a process where someone sketches out a plan, builds it, and it works first time. I've designed a lot of systems, and it is clearly an iterative process. Balancing tradeoffs, figuring out the essentials, build prototypes, test, etc. If you are patient and diligent a solution emerges. That sounds a lot like evolution, so in my mind everything in nature has been designed by the…

I think that's a reasonable perspective to take, although I would argue that there is no clear goal in evolution besides survival and reproduction

The nice thing about a goal, is that one goal begets other sub-goals.

Or rather, a goal begets a strategy, and a strategy begets sub-goals. Beautifully at some point these sub-goals start being optimized for. A few steps of this is how I believe humans went from the sub goal "Survive, eat, reproduce" to "Make art, understand life, explore the world".

The cool thing is that I think this extends beyond humans to tools. Because at some point humans had a sub-goal of "hit thing hard" they made a hammer. And this hammer has a goal (or a purpose) which is "hit things hard". This purpose can be traced back, through human sub-goals, to the final goal of evolution: "reproduce".

Note that I am not saying that the point of a hammer is to produce more hammer. But the point of a hammer is (very indirectly) to allow a human to reproduce.

Interestingly there is a weird game of telephone that can happen, where the sub-goals are imperfect for achieving the final goal. I would argue that this is (part of) why humans can be truly selfless. Take a soldier going to a battle he considers unwinnable but going out of a sense of duty / fear of ridicule. This will not help him reproduce, since the battle is unwinnable it will not help his progeny reproduce either. From the 'ultimate' goal, this is an irrational step. But there are sub-goals at play. Things like "be honorable", "do your duty".

This idea that a sub-goal can subvert the 'ultimate' goal is very beautiful to me. It means that evolution is not some tyranny that sets our purpose in life. Instead evolution brought 'purpose' into the world. And then some stochastic process put you and me on into the universe with some, vaguely related, sense of purpose. But we have our own purpose. Sure our purpose was 'created by' the ultimate purpose of evolution. But our purpose is not subordinate to the ultimate purpose of evolution. A human life can have so much more value that just "continue the genetic line and have children". I find that freeing.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#143
post #6

You sometimes see people ask fairly simple Python questions on Stack Overflow, that could be solved by five lines of plain Python, and be answered with some Pandas magic incantation that happens to do what they want with one call. I always find this a bit sad, because it seems to take away the idea that programming is about assembling composable parts, replacing it by a search for the right magic thing from a box of…

My main issue with LaTex is that you can't take a perfectly correct piece of markup, insert it into a container like a table, and expect it to work. LaTeX makes it difficult to compose stuff. Even HTML did this better.

Not to mention that when it fails to compile, at least in Overleaf you get an error log that is hopelessly useless and the only thing you can do is just remove your changes until it works again.

LaTeX is a cool idea, but the implementation? Absolutely horrid.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#144
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, I just did my resume in LaTeX, it's such an obtuse and painful tool, yet nothing even comes close to the control it gives you. Hey btw, I'm looking for contract work! https://github.com/1player/resume/blob/master/resume.pdf

Surely plain old html does?

For several years (a decade maybe?) I authored my resume in LaTeX. Then a few years ago I wanted to restructure it radically, and make an interactive version that showed off some simple subset of my full-stack skillset (from design to implementation). This goal led me to authoring it in HTML with CSS. I never actually got around to implementing my full vision because I had an unexpected opportunity land in my lap before I'd officially started looking. I had the design and static mockup completed, so I just exported that to PDF and used it. In hindsight, I spent a lot less time getting the look I wanted in HTML than I did in LaTeX.

I still tend to use LaTeX for some long-form documentation, but I'll probably stick to HTML for my resume and I'm finding myself using HTML + Markdown a lot more for other authoring tasks too.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#145
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong agree. My fiance and I wrote our thesis simultaneously, she in Word, while I used LaTeX. The amount of stupid figure- and page- rearrangements she suffered because she removed half a sentence from the middle, while LaTeX generated sane output with basically any text seriously made me much more productive.

Word has had automatic reference numbering for a while now (see for instance [0]). Not denying that it's not very known (nor pleasant to use), and I'm not even talking about bibliography. I made my partner switch to Latex thanks to the bibliography. Writing tables almost made her switch back to Word. [0]: https://www.sfu.ca/~ljilja/cnl/info/UseCrossReference/index....

I meant it more in terms of bad figure placement. LaTeX tries to place the figure relatively close to the source, it has a sane fallback policy, like grouping them together at the end of the section.

With word one can get from a decently formatted text to multiple quarter-filled pages with a single additional sentence, because it has comparatively bad algorithm for text-block reflow.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laying out books. The fact that all of this can be done in a text file, without hidden codes and being tied to this file format or another, is extraordinary. Images are easily handled, fonts simply work (XeTeX & friends work well for me), and — with sufficient warnings — these files can be handed over to an author and edited without messing much, if anything, up. The PDFs generated work well with all the PDF tools I'…

Another poster just finished saying images and tables are hard. Why the disconnect do you think?

Basic LaTeX is easy; ramping up has a significant learning curve, but once that mount has been scaled, things level off quickly. Doing tables in straight LaTeX is miserable — CTAN, however, is filled with fantastic packages that make them easy. XeLaTeX makes inserting images pretty easy without packages. I will say that what may cause difficulty with images for people new to LaTeX are floats — tables, images, and the like may move page to page depending on how the document flows; if you're used to anchoring an image on a particular page in a WP, that may put one's mind a bit out of joint until it makes sense.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#147
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You always feel like you are trying to trick the system into doing something it was not designed for. This is one of the hallmarks of human civilization. Your hands were designed for throwing a stone at the eye of a mammoth. But you can play the violin with them! Yes; it is totally awkward and anti-natural for your hands, obviously not their intended purpose... but so beautiful!

> This is one of the hallmarks of human civilization. This is one of the hallmarks of evolution. How do you think wings evolved? By repurposing an appendage that was already had a purpose other than flight.

We didn’t evolve to play instruments though, we adapted and created them to suit our existing physical form

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#148
post #43

Jesus H Carnegie. I JUST WANT TO WRITE AN ACADEMIC ARTICLE. I mean, look at this abhorrence. And look at what you open up in a TeX file, which again is meant to represent English prose . % Options for packages loaded elsewhere \PassOptionsToPackage{unicode}{hyperref} \PassOptionsToPackage{hyphens}{url} % \documentclass[ ]{article} \usepackage{amsmath,amssymb} \usepackage{lmodern} \usepackage{iftex} \ifPDFTeX ... and…

I agree that LaTeX has not the best syntax, but that is a better alternative?

I mostly write in Word and I can tell you that it is not that much better than LaTeX. Sure, the editor is WYSIWYG so you can see right away the title, abstract, text, etc.

The problems I have with Word are mostly solved in LaTeX. For example, references are automatically managed in LaTeX. In Word, that's mostly a manual process (I know there are integrations with Zotero/Mendeley/whatever, but those are a little wonky on a long paper---I have never used the built-in citation manager). I sometimes feel bad for the editors that have to check all my reference lists. They usually find 1-2 papers that are either missing or included and no longer cited.

Tables are also a problem in Word, especially if your collaborators use an older version that breaks the formatting (Moving between Google Docs -> Word -> Google Docs also breaks a lot of things). I can't tell you how many times I had to reformat tables that a collaborator broke. Making complex tables is also wack sometimes, like adding a simple sub-rule between cells requires some column hacks in Word.

Table/figure numbering is also another thing that I loathe in Word. Manually renumbering is a pain and the automatic numbering always breaks for me in a way or another (maybe still thanks to my collaborators).

All those things work pretty well in LaTeX with some backslash commands.

What Word really shines is track changes and commenting. I don't know if there is a LaTeX editor where you can track changes and comments like in Word (I know that Overleaf has something that kind of works).

Powerpoint vs. Beamer is a whole different ball of wax. Both have pros and cons. But with presentations with a lot of equations, beamer is definitely better but, as you point out, it doesn't play well when you want to put an equation in a specific spot in the slide. In powerpoint, you can just click and drag and you are done.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#149
post #94

I only interact with tex and latex through pollen these days. https://docs.racket-lang.org/pollen/ It doesn't shield you from much of the pain, initially at least. But you can separate it from the document and treat it as markup, and reuse bits more easily. Of course pollen itself is a thing to learn. But if you work with text a lot and like lisp it might be worth it. It's been good to me.

I gave a cursory look at it and it's really too niche, complicated for its own good IMO. Your comment made me want a modern TeX, written in Racket/Lisp. #lang latex (documentclass "article") (document (section "Chapter 1") Welcome to (LaTeX). Here is some (textbf "bold") text.) How does this not exist yet??

Yeah it is kind of surprising. Scribble supports latex output but I don't know the details and it's probably similar to pollen, since pollen is built on it.

It doesn't seem that hard (famous last words tho) especially since turning arbitrary DSLs into xexprs is one of the things racket truly excels at.

Re: I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX

#150
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go so far to say that linguistically nature is the antithesis of artificial (made by hands). Avoiding silly theological tropes, evolution is often mistakenly referred to as a designer when it's just an emergent property of competing, replicating agents. People don't normally bother with precision though, so we are where we are.

I always like to see it the other way around, it eliminates entities that are not a good fit, and the remainder is what drives adaptation. Of course, people could argue that's just like Michelangelo [1], and we're back at 'designed'. [1] “The sculpture is already complete within the marble block, before I start my work. It is already there, I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.”

The process of evolution is more than just the elimination of unfit specimens. That suggests that a tiger is just a tiger, and the only kind of evolution that can occur in the tiger is for it to become a better (faster, stronger) tiger. But in fact there was a time when carnivores didn't even exist, and then some random genetic flux produced an animal that was inclined to start eating other animals and a new ecological niche was discovered. Evolution is therefore a creative process of adaptation and specialization under constantly changing circumstances.
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