Kids are far behind in school • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#281

Post by giantg2 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #178

lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

Home schooling is quantifiably far superior to public schooling, pretty much independent of socioeconomic status[1]. As one would expect, the education level of parents did affect the results. For example, home-school students of parents without college degrees scored, on average, at the 83rd percentile for the core subjects. When one parent had a college degree, those students scored at the 86th percentile, and when…

I'd image those same parents would score similarly to the public school teachers if they had to comply with all the policies the schools set. Many teachers have quit because the schools don't let them teach effectively.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#282

Post by bko » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #255

nemo44x wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The #1 factor in determining if a kid will have a desired outcome is if they have a mom and a dad present. It's really that simple. And that means parental involvement. It's sad one is labeled a racist or anti-feminist or w/e when you point this obvious fact out. ~70% of black kids are born to single mom's. That's a broken culture. White kids are at ~30% and rising and we see the same failure rates. That's a broken c…

but what to do about it? we can't just expect parents to get involved. nor does it help to just blame their kids performance on them. the focus really needs to be on a broader level. what changes to our society are needed so that families can thrive so that they can actually focus on the care of their kids? things like higher minimum wage, parental leave, easy access to insurance, etc. all the general needs everyone…

One thing to do is to stop penalizing family structure through taxes and transfers.

> The U.S. tax code, for example, contains a marriage penalty for high-earner, two-income couples. And the earned income tax credit penalizes lower-wage married couples. Moreover, welfare rules have frequently made it harder for married households than for single-parent households to get benefits. Although few couples sit down and calculate the possible economic effects of getting married, there is a sense, especially within low-income communities, that getting married means you lose “stuff.” Couples may not be able to calculate exactly how much “stuff” they stand to lose, but they know marriage, at least financially, is a bad deal.

> And they are right. According to calculations by Eugene Steuerle of the Urban Institute, a single mother working full-time at a minimum-wage job who marries a man working full-time at $8 an hour stands to lose $8,060 in cash and noncash welfare benefits. Under such circumstances, the wonder is not that few low-income couples marry, but that any do.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/wedding-bell-blues-marria...

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#283

Post by JeremyNT » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

bigDinosaur wrote: post #15

mort96 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand exactly what you're complaining about. Has anyone ignored the cost of closing schools? My impression has always been that everyone has known about the high cost, but, well, millions more dead isn't exactly a small cost either. I mean you may disagree with the choices which were made, but surely you have to recognize that it's a bit more complicated than what you're suggesting?

Yes, people have stated that 'the kids will be fine' quite consistently. Also, all costs other than deaths have been underplayed by people in favour of lockdowns. Memory-holing this is literally insane (where insane = disconnected from reality). That's not to say that what was done wasn't the best of a suite of bad options. But I saw nothing but fairly extreme downplaying of the consequences of lockdowns from people…

> Yes, people have stated that 'the kids will be fine' quite consistently. Also, all costs other than deaths have been underplayed by people in favour of lockdowns. Memory-holing this is literally insane (where insane = disconnected from reality).

Perhaps this hinges on your definition of "fine" - will most of these children become functional well adjusted adults? Sure, people can weather far worse things than this. But will they be set back on their education? Unquestionably.

As a parent of an elementary school child, I can tell you that if "people" were saying schools closures were of no consequence, they were idiots or charlatans. From the beginning it was obvious that a "remote only" learning plan for kids this age was going to be terrible, and it would exacerbate any underlying inequality that was already in place.

"People" can and do state absolute nonsense all the time, so the fact that "people have stated" something dumb is, on its own, a useless data point. The more useful question is whether these people who were making bold claims that there would be no harm successfully manipulated public policy.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#284

Post by Jensson » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

dncornholio wrote: post #136

tejohnso wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does being "behind" even mean? Or matter? Is extending parental dependency the problem? If someone starts college at 20 instead of 18 they are likely at home longer. But a lot of people aren't leaving home for college anyway, or they return home after college whether they graduate or not. If a bunch of kids start high school at 16 instead of 14 is it going to cause serious problems? It seems to me the only iss…

Absolutely. If everyone is behind, are you?

If everyone is behind then society is behind. It isn't a problem for society if one kid is behind, but it starts to be a problem when millions of kids are behind.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#285

Post by magicink81 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

The schooling system is designed to fail the expectations of those who think its purpose is to educate people, and succeed in full-filling other purposes. If you're curious about what those other purposes might be, I recommend reading the books of John Taylor Gatto [1].

Also, the School Sucks Project [2] is a great source of knowledge about the history of schooling, as well as education solutions and alternatives to schooling. They have just launched a re-broadcast of the essential 50 episodes (of their over a decade of 800 episodes) that covers the full spectrum of the relevant topics.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/John-Taylor-Gatto/e/B001K7S0AE%3Fref=... [2] https://schoolsucksproject.com

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#286

Post by ironmagma » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

annyeonghada wrote: post #228

Talinx wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Germany, here sport is integrated into the timetable like every other subject. Sport is not that important here so I might underestimate the amount/impact of sports in US high schools. I'd say that more sport is generally a good thing. What matters most to me about high school learning is that IQ does not decline. Grades are just a bad IQ test and most things you learn in high school don't matter. Sport is h…

>Grades are just a bad IQ test and most things you learn in high school don't matter. Well, speak for yourself. It may be a very unpopular opinion here on HN but I learned a lot at school, be it elementary, middle, high or university. But I went to school in Italy, and it was a good school. >But I think that for most people many things that are taught in high school are useless while more important things (understand…

> most things you learn in high school don't matter.

> I learned a lot at school

These aren't contradictory statements. You aren't considering all the things you forgot from school, for a very simple reason: by definition, you forgot about them and didn't learn them.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#287

Post by nverno » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #259

soderfoo wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most charitable interpretation of "broken culture" would be America, across all slices of society, has trended towards selfish shallow values, less intellectual interests and value on hard work, more aggression and an empathy defecit. I think this has frayed the fabric of society by damaging the reciprocity that binds families and communities, and encourages divisive and antisocial, short-term behaviors over long…

An analogy I heard is that there is no single American culture. Or even an "American Culture" at all, and that there probably shouldn't be one. And that various powers/forces/etc have tried to homogenize America into a shared American Culture which can't possibly exist. So, the analogy is America is like a soda machine that has many different flavors of soda and each of them is different and unique and loved by diffe…

Wholeheartedly agree with your analogy. Americans share a federal political system, but not much of a collective culture, at least not too far beyond that shared by liberal societies around the world. It's one of the best thing about the states. You're 100% right that the Federal govt should step back to allow local government to handle issues differently. Local people care about local people and understand their needs/concerns.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#288

Post by rufius » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #212

rufius wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s helping to foster a sense of community and school pride. You forgot part: > It’s helping to foster a sense of community, school pride, *and brain damage*.

FWIW, the rules are so strict now that football's probably safer than it's ever been to play. Additionally, I've read a ton of studies of this stuff and everything that I've found said the risk at the high school level is virtually nonexistent when compared with the general student body. In the college and professional level where everybody is bigger, stronger and faster it's an entirely different situation.

I’m just gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say that getting hit in the head repeatedly isn’t good for you, especially if you’re a developing child.

But to each their own.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#289

Post by namelessoracle » Mon, May 23, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #142

namelessoracle wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

19 weeks is enough to make a kid college ready or not. And it's enough to push a kid that would be eligible to high achieving school to a lesser one.

Yes because they won't be prepared for exams. But not because they aren't educated.

I dont think you understand how certain key points and milestones can completely make certain educational goals almost unachievable.

Let me give you an example. In 8th grade a kid will learn math that will basically put them on STEM trajectory or not. They learn Algebra that sets them up for taking high school calculus or they dont. If they dont, they may get into college, but they will have an up hill battle with STEM trying to learn it there.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#290

Post by rkk3 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #131

buildsjets wrote: post #64

Especially in high school, an astounding amount of time, money, space, and personnel are dedicated to sports, and this does not just impact the athletes. In many schools the entire day is structured around the football team's practice schedule. Make school sports a truly after-hours extracurricular activity and remove their impact from non-participants, and I'd estimate you could see around 20% improvement time spent…

Well, to anecdotally back you up, in Massachusetts with the #1 public schools in the country, I hear and see nothing about football. I think I hear more about the HS plays and concerts than HS football. The last football funding discussion at the town level was whether to fund better helmets to protect against CTE or make the players' parents pay for it, so the town isn't seen supporting/encouraging brain damage to c…

> Well, to anecdotally back you up, in Massachusetts with the #1 public schools in the country

Maybe they have the "best overall public school systems" but looking at individual public high schools Massachusetts doesn't even make the list till #26 and then not again until #153 in the national rankings

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/search