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Kids are far behind in school

theatlantic.com

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Re: Kids are far behind in school

#131

Post by Steltek »

buildsjets wrote: post #64

Especially in high school, an astounding amount of time, money, space, and personnel are dedicated to sports, and this does not just impact the athletes. In many schools the entire day is structured around the football team's practice schedule. Make school sports a truly after-hours extracurricular activity and remove their impact from non-participants, and I'd estimate you could see around 20% improvement time spent…

Well, to anecdotally back you up, in Massachusetts with the #1 public schools in the country, I hear and see nothing about football. I think I hear more about the HS plays and concerts than HS football.

The last football funding discussion at the town level was whether to fund better helmets to protect against CTE or make the players' parents pay for it, so the town isn't seen supporting/encouraging brain damage to children.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#132

Post by lapcat »

ekianjo wrote: post #127
lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

> But I eventually caught up, and it was fine. So I suspect that this problem is vastly overstated. Alternative explanation: you are acting like there is no problem based on anecdotal evidence that is irrelevant to the current situation - At the same time there might be a very serious one as quite a few kids basically have missed proper school for about 2 years. Let's not even try to pretend that lockdowns have no ne…

> At the same time there might be a very serious one as quite a few kids basically have missed proper school for about 2 years. Let's not even try to pretend that lockdowns have no negative effects at all.

I'm not saying there are no negative effects. What I would say is this: even before the pandemic, many students were not sufficiently "challenged". They were already moving more slowly than they could have moved. It's possible for them to catch up. They could have caught up with other kids before the pandemic too, if put in the right situation.

Time spent sitting in seats is not education, by itself. How that time is used is just as important, and we often squander that time, even when there's not a public health crisis.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#133

Post by jdmichal »

tejohnso wrote: post #104
lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

> What does being "behind" even mean? Or matter? Is extending parental dependency the problem? If someone starts college at 20 instead of 18 they are likely at home longer. But a lot of people aren't leaving home for college anyway, or they return home after college whether they graduate or not. If a bunch of kids start high school at 16 instead of 14 is it going to cause serious problems? It seems to me the only iss…

There would be huge capacity problems associated with combining entire years of students. Many teachers, classrooms, and entire schools are already on the edge of overcapacity.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#134

Post by jdmichal »

endisneigh wrote: post #111
balefrost wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, it specifically points to remote learning as the thing that put students behind. I think the commenter believes that the negative effect of remote learning is overstated relative to other factors.

the commenter didn't even mention remote at all tho

Grice's maxim of relation: Be relevant.

https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Gricean_maxims#Maxim_of_R...

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#135

Post by lapcat »

endisneigh wrote: post #125
lapcat wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't mean they're not behind, though? As I asked originally, what does "behind" even mean? It seems to depend crucially on a schedule and expectations. This is why I mentioned social promotion, where students move up in grade simply because a year has passed. The pandemic has certainly messed up the standard academic schedule, without a doubt. But so what? Are kids irreparably harmed because the standard ac…

The article showed standardized test performance went down, which is what it means by behind. You seem to be ranting about something irrelevant. The authors never claimed kids were irreparably damaged. Your take is just so bizarre.

> The article showed standardized test performance went down, which is what it means by behind.

The schedule of standardized tests is not written in stone for eternity. If the academic schedule is messed up, then give the tests later.

Let's say you take a year off between high school and college. Are you "behind"? In one sense, yes. But that doesn't mean your overall college experience will be any worse than someone who started college immediately after high school. Why is the standard schedule so important?

Arguably everyone should take some time off between high school and college to get all the drinking/drugs/partying out of your system before you get serious. I certainly squandered my first couple years. ;-) But then I worked like crazy and "made it up" as a junior and senior.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#136

Post by dncornholio »

tejohnso wrote: post #104
lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

> What does being "behind" even mean? Or matter? Is extending parental dependency the problem? If someone starts college at 20 instead of 18 they are likely at home longer. But a lot of people aren't leaving home for college anyway, or they return home after college whether they graduate or not. If a bunch of kids start high school at 16 instead of 14 is it going to cause serious problems? It seems to me the only iss…

Absolutely. If everyone is behind, are you?

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#137

Post by giantg2 »

seoaeu wrote: post #99
giantg2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded" Not exactly. Most states and the federal government adjust funding to send it to the schools that need it most. https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/school-fundi...

Here’s a different source contradicting that: https://www.pubintlaw.org/cases-and-projects/our-expert-repo...

Where's the part that contradicts that? That lawsuit is saying that the state isn't calculating the required funds and is apparently underfunding almost every district. That doesn't contradict the claim that the state is allocating more funds to poor districts than it does to more affluent districts, thus resulting in similar per student funding overall.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#138

Post by nverno »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #86
nverno wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just seems lazy, using race as a proxy variable without positing a hypothesis for what it means. It doesn't tell us, as readers, anything about why some kids didn't perform as well as others.

Is that their role? It's very common to see journalist-posited hypotheses used as the justification for dismissing concerns, on HN in particular. I think it's reasonable for them to relay the noticed effect and not try to guess why, if the research they're reporting on hasn't established a link yet. Plus what does it change about our understanding, or responsibility? The effect is there, it's real. What are you hopin…

No, I'm interested in how people learn successfully, and what scenarios lead to better outcomes. I highly doubt being a minority has anything to do with it, aside from being a confounding variable. It may be the case that people of some ethnic group are more likely to have a home dynamic that made this distance learning situation more difficult, who knows, but that would have been a useful insight the people researching the data could've provided.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#139

Post by mort96 »

endgame wrote: post #43
mort96 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand exactly what you're complaining about. Has anyone ignored the cost of closing schools? My impression has always been that everyone has known about the high cost, but, well, millions more dead isn't exactly a small cost either. I mean you may disagree with the choices which were made, but surely you have to recognize that it's a bit more complicated than what you're suggesting?

No, people really did pretend that. Here's one example that I remember: https://twitter.com/AmerAcadPeds/status/1425857041457942542 Obviously paediatrics is not the same as schooling, but I recall this sort of attitude being prevalent.

What does that tweet show? Are you suggesting that children are "far, far behind in school" because teachers were masked, and not because schools were closed and classes were remote?
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