Kids are far behind in school • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#151

Post by jeffbee » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

markvdb wrote: post #101

lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

> What does being "behind" even mean? In my case as a guitar teacher, I see two patterns: - Students with less support at home or natural feeling for guitar are about a year behind where they would normally be after four years of studying. - My most motivated, talented and best supported students are on schedule or slightly ahead.

Thanks for mentioning music. It baffles me that anyone would be blind to the idea that children could be "behind" when so much of childhood development involves muscle strength and dexterity that must be practiced. This goes for many musical instruments as well as the voice, all athletics, penmanship, verbal articulation, and so much more.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#152

Post by 015UUZn8aEvW » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:28 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #124

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth The data show that causation mostly flows in the opposite direction. The main determinant of whether a school is "good" is the average academic ability of the students who attend the school. And that, statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income. Policy interventions based on the idea that school qua…

While you are correct that good schools are caused by good students, it's not strictly accurate to say that "statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income". Being a good student is largely a function of intelligence and conscientiousness, which is largely a function of parental intelligence and conscientiousness. Income doesn't cause intelligence or conscientiousness, although it may be partially c…

Agreed, this is a more precise way of stating it, albeit using traits that are more difficult to measure at scale.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#153

Post by taeric » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:28 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #147

taeric wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. There is nothing stopping any other sport from being as central more than the amount of money and effort that currently goes to football. Often in an arms race against neighboring schools. To try and prop it up as a natural thing that is good just feels like a major problem.

> There is nothing stopping any other sport from being as central more than the amount of money and effort that currently goes to football. It's awful hard for the band to take the field at halftime at water polo. Those uniforms don't really want to be wet.

Congrats on picking a straw man sport. That said, no reason band couldn't be pushing more concerts than sideline offering at a game.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#154

Post by throwaway95919 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #94

lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

>Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth The data show that causation mostly flows in the opposite direction. The main determinant of whether a school is "good" is the average academic ability of the students who attend the school. And that, statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income. Policy interventions based on the idea that school qua…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#155

Post by sndean » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #131

buildsjets wrote: post #64

Especially in high school, an astounding amount of time, money, space, and personnel are dedicated to sports, and this does not just impact the athletes. In many schools the entire day is structured around the football team's practice schedule. Make school sports a truly after-hours extracurricular activity and remove their impact from non-participants, and I'd estimate you could see around 20% improvement time spent…

Well, to anecdotally back you up, in Massachusetts with the #1 public schools in the country, I hear and see nothing about football. I think I hear more about the HS plays and concerts than HS football. The last football funding discussion at the town level was whether to fund better helmets to protect against CTE or make the players' parents pay for it, so the town isn't seen supporting/encouraging brain damage to c…

And to add another anecdote, the overall #1 high school in the US in Virginia (by some rankings at least) doesn't have a football team. Sports like cross country get more attention.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#156

Post by jdmichal » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #94

lapcat wrote: post #55

What does being "behind" even mean? The dirty truth of the US educational "system" is that there is no system. Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth (i.e., the property tax base, because schools are locally funded). When I was a kid, my family moved from one city to another within the same state, and suddenly I was way behind in my new school, especially in…

>Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth The data show that causation mostly flows in the opposite direction. The main determinant of whether a school is "good" is the average academic ability of the students who attend the school. And that, statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income. Policy interventions based on the idea that school qua…

I'm going to repost a comment of mine from two years ago. This is not an unknown thing to school boards.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23012403

The wife of one of my good friends was on the county school board for 12 years. According to her, it was an unspoken secret was that parental involvement was the biggest predictor of / contributor to student success. The reason it was taboo was because you absolutely cannot expect anything from the parents. It was political suicide.

I would put dollars on the table that such is already happening for every parent that is willing and able to do it, because they were already doing it before too.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#157

Post by lapcat » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #77

buildsjets wrote: post #64

Especially in high school, an astounding amount of time, money, space, and personnel are dedicated to sports, and this does not just impact the athletes. In many schools the entire day is structured around the football team's practice schedule. Make school sports a truly after-hours extracurricular activity and remove their impact from non-participants, and I'd estimate you could see around 20% improvement time spent…

The thing about football is that so many people are involved with it, it becomes a school wide event. You have players on the team and coaches, yes. But you also have cheerleaders, marching band, trainer assistants (usually students who want to go into medicine or physical therapy). There are homecoming pagents and dances plus the social event every weekend for the school that goes along with it. There’s no sport in…

> There’s no sport in high school that comes close to pulling everybody together the same way as football.

Wow, that's not my high school experience. Sports divided the student body into the popular athletic kids and the unpopular academic kids. If you celebrate the football team and not the math team, the results are predictable, and they won't be to promote math.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#158

Post by rkk3 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

leksak wrote: post #150

tejohnso wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does being "behind" even mean? Or matter? Is extending parental dependency the problem? If someone starts college at 20 instead of 18 they are likely at home longer. But a lot of people aren't leaving home for college anyway, or they return home after college whether they graduate or not. If a bunch of kids start high school at 16 instead of 14 is it going to cause serious problems? It seems to me the only iss…

You don't imagine being two years older than the majority of your classmates at that time is going to have immediate effects on their social life at that time or that employers in the future will note that they graduated later in life and thus pass them over for a different candidate?

> or that employers in the future will note that they graduated later in life and thus pass them over for a different candidate?

How would a potential employer know they were graduating college at 24 vs 22, and without knowing the reason for the difference why would they care. "I'm afraid we can't hire you at FAANG, it seems you had to repeat the first grade 15 years ago."

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#159

Post by nicoburns » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #124

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Different school districts offer vastly different levels of education, depending mainly on wealth The data show that causation mostly flows in the opposite direction. The main determinant of whether a school is "good" is the average academic ability of the students who attend the school. And that, statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income. Policy interventions based on the idea that school qua…

While you are correct that good schools are caused by good students, it's not strictly accurate to say that "statistically speaking, is largely a function of race and income". Being a good student is largely a function of intelligence and conscientiousness, which is largely a function of parental intelligence and conscientiousness. Income doesn't cause intelligence or conscientiousness, although it may be partially c…

Income can have a huge effect on observed "conscientiousness". If a student is having to spend effort on looking after their siblings, or their parents, or worrying about how they're going to eat then it's going to be much harder for them to focus on school.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#160

Post by lumost » Mon, May 23, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #144

lern_too_spel wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you're commenting on mentions several interventions with significant benefit: "High-dosage tutoring—which educators define as involving a trained tutor working with one to four students at a time, three times a week for a whole year—is one of the few interventions with a demonstrated benefit that comes close, producing an average gain equivalent to 19 weeks of instruction." "One option is voluntary summer…

Summer school, being about 5 weeks, adding 5 weeks of gain is ... kind of expected.

Which begs the question… why don’t we do it? Summer break is fun and all, but far to long for most students.