Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons • Hacker News Board

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#301

Post by anonymousab » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #296

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

> but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without.

This demands proof, citation, and of course, controlling for how many cyclists in an area wear helmets vs. not.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#302

Post by gameswithgo » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

timbaboon wrote: post #278

End of 2020 I had a serious bike accident. I was specifically riding slowly and carefully because I did not want to fall and end up in hospital - in the middle of the second wave in SA and a shortage of hospital space. Even so, I had the most ridiculous and embarrassing crash, whilst hardly moving, and ended up in the ER. I was wearing a helmet and I still got a concussion. My helmet was broken and certainly saved me…

No post body was provided.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#303

Post by JKCalhoun » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

timbaboon wrote: post #278

End of 2020 I had a serious bike accident. I was specifically riding slowly and carefully because I did not want to fall and end up in hospital - in the middle of the second wave in SA and a shortage of hospital space. Even so, I had the most ridiculous and embarrassing crash, whilst hardly moving, and ended up in the ER. I was wearing a helmet and I still got a concussion. My helmet was broken and certainly saved me…

Yeah, not sure how more careful a rider you can be when you have your own toddler in a child-seat behind you — and yet my bike went down on an unexpectedly slick part of the pavement. I had a helmet on, as did my toddler.

I don't buy the argument that because someone has a helmet on they're intentionally (or even subconsciously) reckless. Shit can happen.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#304

Post by analog31 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

throwawayhelmet wrote: post #44

Okay, true story. Years ago I struggled with this exact logic regarding skiing with helmet. After serious consideration I decided to start skiing so carefully that I do not need a helmet. As you may guess at this point, The very first day I left my helmet home, I got into an accident and got a skull fracture. I started using my helmet again after that. (But another safety related thing I have started to really doubt.…

I have a ski helmet at home with a big crack in it. My daughter was wearing it. She's a cautious skier with a lot of training.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#305

Post by mistersquid » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #296

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

> but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without.

You provided no data.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#306

Post by christophilus » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #296

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

I’d like to see the evidence of this. I can imagine that maybe wearing a helmet gives a false sense of security, and therefore leads to a bit more recklessness. Still, I’d bet that even if you have more accidents when wearing a helmet, you have fewer deaths.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#307

Post by prepend » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

isitmadeofglass wrote: post #53

The first person fired for wearing a helmet is going to be so damn lucky. That settlement money will end up being equivalent of several lifetimes with of work. There is absolutely no way that their logic holds up in court.

Almost everywhere in the US is at will so there’s likely no successful lawsuit in the situation you describe.

Sadly, it’s likely the first driver who dies without a helmet will result in their family filing a giant lawsuit. But that payout will be paid by insurance that is probably already factoring in the probability of such a payout.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#308

Post by lelandfe » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #296

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/46/1/278/2617198

> Bicycle helmet use was associated with reduced odds of head injury, serious head injury, facial injury and fatal head injury. The reduction was greater for serious or fatal head injury. Neck injury was rare and not associated with helmet use. These results support the use of strategies to increase the uptake of bicycle helmets as part of a comprehensive cycling safety plan.

OK, let's see your data!

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#309

Post by ilikehurdles » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #296

spankalee wrote: post #272

I once saw an accident where a cyclist going straight through an intersection was hit by an oncoming truck turning left that was impatient, didn't see the cyclist and gunned it between cars. The cyclist was launched headfirst into the bumper of a car stopped at the light and her helmet loudly cracked in two. She was still hurt, but I'm sure she would have died without that helmet. If some riders choose to not wear a…

This is one of those situations where there is a lot of fear and anecdotes but data shows that more accidents and injuries occur with helmets than without. A company should design their safety protocol well and it includes what equipment workers should and should not wear to protect them best. So prohibiting helmets is very responsible. Criticizing them seems to be taking an irrational stance that it’s better to addr…

Can you cite any of those studies? Is this one of those things where studies count the accidents reported for each group without controlling for population size?

I ask because there are “studies” that show there are more skiing accidents with helmets than without, but anyone who has spent a day at a ski hill can tell why that is: the vast, vast majority of people are wearing helmets. Throw a rock into a crowd of skiers and you’ll probably hit someone with a helmet. Does that mean helmets attract rocks?

Assuming their accident rates are anywhere in the same ballpark, accidents will involve more helmet wearers by a significant margin just because they outnumber non-helmet wearers.

Re: Pedal Me bans staff riders from wearing helmets for safety reasons

#310

Post by sokoloff » Sun, May 22, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #300

sokoloff wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also significant legal penalties for being at-fault and injuring/killing a cyclist in the Netherlands as compared to the US.

Aren’t the at fault vehicular manslaughter laws in the US the same for drivers who hit cars, cyclists, and pedestrians? If you kill a cyclist in the US and you’re at fault, that’s likely jail time (same for hitting a car or pedestrian). What’s missing in US laws vs Netherlands?

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/245475107?storyId=245475107

If you are convicted of vehicular manslaughter, you are very likely going to serve time.

However, if you hit and kill and cyclist in the US, you are not likely to be charged with vehicular manslaughter, so long as you were sober and weren’t actively trying to hit them.