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Why America has so few carpenters

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#181

Post by throwaway2037 »

laingc wrote: post #46
billfruit wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or US government can start to issue large number of temporary "fruit picker" visas.

New Zealand does exactly this, and I’m of two minds on it. On the one hand, it seems easy to say that if you don’t have enough workers, you’ve got to raise your price - it’s a free market, right? Except it’s not. NZ has a very generous welfare system (compared to its very small GDP) and this means that being un- or under-employed is a viable option. On the other hand, the jobs also bring in a lot of money for the isl…

I'm confused by this part: > Did you mean to say "GDP per capita"? To me: The generosity of a social safety net is about two things: (1) culture (do you care about non-family) and (2) GDP per capita (can you afford it).

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#182

Post by bell-cot »

0134340 wrote: post #130
Gareth321 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is quite interesting to me, because I've been into lifting and body building at times in my life and the research was clear: within limits, this is very good for the human body. So I'm quite confident to say that there's nothing inherently bad about lifting, pushing, twisting, pulling, turning, and holding heavy things. Quite the opposite. So the question then becomes: is this about technique? Are these labourer…

>Are they just never taught to lift things correctly? Part of it is that you find yourself having to lift in awkward positions often while you're having to carry heavy materials through obstacle courses, up on ladders and down stairs in ways that you'll inevitably have to compromise optimal form all while the wage clock is ticking so you have to hurry. In weightlifting you're afforded proper time and place to practic…

Interesting. I've often heard that athletes in even non-contact high school sports need to lift weights - to protect at-risk joints by strengthening the various muscles around them.

It would be extremely nice if mandatory weight training could greatly reduce the incidence of injuries and "wear out" in blue collar workers...

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#183

Post by Aunche »

billfruit wrote: post #45
wardedVibe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

Or US government can start to issue large number of temporary "fruit picker" visas.

This is exactly what the US government does with H2A visas.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#184

Post by nickelpro »

refurb wrote: post #171
nickelpro wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer? No, that's why I said: > There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other. - > If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well. Of course, and if you lo…

Maybe you can try again? I’m still not sure the point you’re making. I mean, no, someone who wants to be an engineer won’t choose the trades. But they wouldn’t do it regardless. That’s not the point.

I agree, someone who wants to be an engineer won't pick the trades. Someone who deeply wants to work the trades won't become an engineer.

What I'm saying is that the vast majority want to have a career that makes the most money, with the best benefits, and the best work-life balance within the body of possible options that interest and are available to them.

If you're interested in working with electricity you might be an electrician or an electrical engineer, but with the way things are lined up today if you have the opportunity and are not devoted to the trade, you pick electrical engineer every time.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#185

Post by short_sells_poo »

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

I care! I never worked in trade, but perhaps I have an obsessive personality and like it when things are done properly. When I moved to the UK a few years ago, one of the first things I noticed is the appalling quality of work that the construction industry puts out in the UK. It is truly shocking. Everything is just “that’ll do”. It is very difficult to find a true craftsman these days, even if you are willing to pay for it.

I want people in trade to earn a very good wage. It is difficult labour that requires a lot of practice and experience to do well. Unfortunately, the entire industry today seems to be drowned out by construction “sweatshops”. It’s sad.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#186

Post by rdtwo »

laingc wrote: post #73
lotsofpulp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular. It helps local labor sellers to be in higher demand and hence negotiate higher prices who may have taken the option to pick fruit and vegetables.

I understand that argument, but the very high minimum wage and availability of state support means that in practice there is no market-clearing price for this labour. New Zealanders simply don’t want to do these jobs.

The is a price but regulators cap it off. It may not be a good business but a lot of things aren’t a good business if you actually have to pay market wages.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#187

Post by bombcar »

kixiQu wrote: post #112
bigpeopleareold wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened to my father - lost his two right middle fingers on a table saw. I suppose this was before OSHA rules had wider-reaching impact, because he lost them in the late 60s (while working on construction for the NYC housing authority ... so it could have been union at that time, but I don't remember what he said.)

Table saws are no joke, even in the best of circumstances! There definitely is still risk even when you're managing that risk well. (And it doesn't matter how many videos of it I watch, that SawStop stuff still feels like a miracle every time you see a hot dog spared.)

Table saws are deceptively dangerous - because they’re so large and fixed they feel safer than they are.

It’s definitely one of the “think three times and then do it slow and safe” tools in the shop.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#188

Post by [deleted] »

danielheath wrote: post #127
imustbeevil wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is efficient. You raise prices and pay workers more -> Fewer people are willing to purchase at that price -> You make less profit -> You don't make enough profit to pay people more. It's a complex problem. You could make the same market argument as: if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?

> The market is efficient. The market is more efficient, on average, than other methods of price setting. It’s not perfect efficiency (or even close to it).

[deleted]

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#189

Post by chrisseaton »

gumby wrote: post #162
jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

> The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution This. I hired a union shop to build my house, and am thankful for it. for various reasons, construction is mostly lowest quality possible, but everybody on my house had a ticket and the result is obvious (not just appearance but lower cost of maintenance). When I worked at Terrajoule we were not a union shop but we often hired union contractors for s…

> I hired a union shop to build my house

Aren’t most tradespeople self-employed? How do you have a union when you’re the boss?

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#190

Post by r3trohack3r »

bluGill wrote: post #156
nicoburns wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect they’re both correct. House building standards seem to have been trending downwards for at least 100 years if not more. Some things have gotten better of course (fire safety, insulation, etc), but the construction itself tends to be optimised for cost over quality these days.

Standards have been trending up. Modern houses are much more likely yo survive a hurricane, and have much better insulation. Most people have no idea what makes a house good and so are impressed by things that don't matter. A lot of this is because the important parts are hidden inside the walls where you can't see them.

I’m starting to appreciate this more as I age. Quite by accident - I purchased a new-ish (2004) house made by an incredible builder (T. W. Lewis). Compared to friends living in houses built around the same time, maintenance on this property is lower. Things are just “built better.”

My in laws just built a new home with an average builder. I got to watch the house go up - know what’s in the walls, etc. Their house is higher quality than mine. New construction seems to be better than buying old homes on average, and prices reflect that - new costs more and you get less.

This lead me to a somewhat startling revelation: houses do not appreciate in value. The house looses value but is offset by the dollar losing buying power in the housing market.

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