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Why America has so few carpenters

thehustle.co

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#131

Post by refurb »

dagw wrote: post #125
refurb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. My neighbor growing up was an electrician. By his 40's he struck out on his own with his own company. Made way more money than my family that was doing white collar office jobs. Dude spent his 50's retired on some boat.

But did he make his money as an electrician or an entrepreneur and business owner?

Both. Good enough electrician to have a long customer list. Figured he could strike out on his own and hire his own crews.

Like a programmer working for a FAANG then starting their own consultancy.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#132

Post by deepsun »

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

But imagine how it was 50 years ago. Pretty much the same, minus health security.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#133

Post by refurb »

nickelpro wrote: post #129

Because the pay is too low for the required labor. Court dismissed, bring in the dancing lobsters. Also the way these pro-trade articles always frame college as some nebulous malignant force pulling people away from necessary, "good-paying" trades is a laugh. As if people who have the option to bring home electrical engineer wages and work in an air-conditioned office would choose to become an electrician instead. Th…

You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer?

If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#134

Post by nickelpro »

refurb wrote: post #133
nickelpro wrote: post #129

Because the pay is too low for the required labor. Court dismissed, bring in the dancing lobsters. Also the way these pro-trade articles always frame college as some nebulous malignant force pulling people away from necessary, "good-paying" trades is a laugh. As if people who have the option to bring home electrical engineer wages and work in an air-conditioned office would choose to become an electrician instead. Th…

You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer? If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.

> You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer?

No, that's why I said:

> There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other.

-

> If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.

Of course, and if you look at when degreed engineers start earning (not even mentioning benefits, bonuses, equity...), and if they are willing to go where the high pay is, both numbers are higher. Until that's not true, until the lifetime earnings of trades is at parity or higher than college-bound careers, the incentives will always be lined up that college is the better choice from an earnings point of view.

Money isn't everything. Not everyone will pick the options that lead to the highest lifetime earnings/earliest retirement/least risk of on the job injury, but most will if given the option. Pretending that isn't true doesn't benefit anyone.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#135

Post by tuatoru »

deepsun wrote: post #132
jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

But imagine how it was 50 years ago. Pretty much the same, minus health security.

Where I live (NZ), 50 years ago they had apprenticeships. Behold the fruit of deregulation.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#136

Post by jimnotgym »

deepsun wrote: post #132
jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

But imagine how it was 50 years ago. Pretty much the same, minus health security.

No...50 years ago we had the NHS, and sickness benefits, same as today

My father and grandfather were both in the trade. 50 years ago there were some safety concerns, especially around scaffolding (asbestos too, but that's its own story). However they all lamented about how much easier it was to feed your family then.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#137

Post by jimnotgym »

jimnotgym wrote: post #136
deepsun wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But imagine how it was 50 years ago. Pretty much the same, minus health security.

No...50 years ago we had the NHS, and sickness benefits, same as today My father and grandfather were both in the trade. 50 years ago there were some safety concerns, especially around scaffolding (asbestos too, but that's its own story). However they all lamented about how much easier it was to feed your family then.

Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#138

Post by indigochill »

imustbeevil wrote: post #55
coldtea wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".

The market is efficient. You raise prices and pay workers more -> Fewer people are willing to purchase at that price -> You make less profit -> You don't make enough profit to pay people more. It's a complex problem. You could make the same market argument as: if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?

> if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?

They do (sans outcompeting). We just call them luxury goods. It's a different market.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#139

Post by fredgrott »

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

ahem, former son of a carpenter.

In the USA and several other places the way from unskilled to skilled was via carpenter as you could enter the field unskilled.

My father went from truck driver to carpenter after a truck driver strike.

And due to that there was always money loosing cycles occurring when it was easy to get in and an over supply of those wanting to get in.

What some did was step up to furniture finishing such as kitchen cabinets, bars, etc.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#140

Post by dragonwriter »

jimnotgym wrote: post #137
jimnotgym wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No...50 years ago we had the NHS, and sickness benefits, same as today My father and grandfather were both in the trade. 50 years ago there were some safety concerns, especially around scaffolding (asbestos too, but that's its own story). However they all lamented about how much easier it was to feed your family then.

Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom

> Also 50 years ago if you were building new housing, if your work was sub-standard you did not get paid. There would be a clerk of works checking it was up to scratch. Now it is a race to the bottom

I’m old enough that one of my earliest memories of advice being given on house buying (not to me, I was still to young for that) was of people advising against buying anything from around the time you were praising (which at the time of the advice, wasn't brand new but still newish), making exactly the same comparison of that time to the time a few decades before (though I thing then it was usually 20-30 and not 50 years before held up as a model) as you make of now to then.

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