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Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

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Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#271

Post by TimPC »

dragonwriter wrote: post #267
TimPC wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately though we need to pick an arrangement. It's going to be very difficult to have part of society on reduced five day work weeks and part of society on four day work weeks. It creates unusual demand patterns on schools and daycare which you need to decide whether to run on a four or five day pattern. It's hard for the schools or daycares if the teachers/ECEs opt for four day work weeks but a substantial porti…

> It creates unusual demand patterns on schools and daycare which you need to decide whether to run on a four or five day pattern. Schools can run a 5-day pattern even if some of their employees are on a 4-day pattern (as long as they are not the same four-day pattern). In fact, it's not unknown for various workplaces to run a 5-day every week pattern with employees on a mix of 9-8-80 two-week and 4-10-40 1-week cycl…

It's difficult and disruptive for students to be on a 5-day pattern of education with a homeroom teacher on a 4-day pattern. This basically necessitates scheduling entirely non-core subjects on the fifth day, potentially even resulting in multiple sessions of gym in a single day. It's also not clear to me you can viably do this without increasing costs unless the school is free to choose which of the four days the teacher's work instead of the teacher doing so. For example, if the standard 4-day work week is Monday-Thursday then there is ridiculous demand for non-core subject teachers on Friday and those non-core subject teachers may even be working Monday-Thursday themselves resulting in reduced supply.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#272

Post by dragonwriter »

ErrantX wrote: post #265
dragonwriter wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, service workers have wage pressure to sign waivers to let them work more than the 48 hours US wage and hour laws are not generally individually waivable, as the entire point of wage and hour laws is to address power imbalance between workers and their employers. When talking about the length of the legal workweek in the US, the discussion is of laws as to when overtime compensation for non-exempt employees…

Interesting point; but I think the US laws have similar effect in different ways. For example; the overtime laws just create incentive to work more than 40 hours a week. On average US workers work much more than other OECD countries.

> For example; the overtime laws just create incentive to work more than 40 hours a week.

They create incentive not to allow workers to work more than 40 hour weeks.

> On average US workers work much more than other OECD countries

That's because the US has low minimum wage / cost of living compared to other OECD countries and relatively week social support systems.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#273

Post by TimPC »

bityard wrote: post #257
junipertea wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different learning styles are actually disputed [0], but I agree that 1. it's easier for employer to fit everyone in one box. 2. If people had more individual approaches, they would work better [0] https://www.educationnext.org/stubborn-myth-learning-styles-...

I read that article but it doesn't seem to actually say much, other than "leaning styles == bad." My best guess is that the author has built a strawman and his definition of "different learning styles" is markedly different (or narrower) than the common understanding of the phase. I consider myself a pretty open-minded individual and a strong adherent to the idea that (properly conducted!) science furthers human prog…

There is a sizeable contingent in education that ascribes to the theory that learning styles is mostly bunk. The differences in outcomes for students taught with a preferred learning style vs students taught with their least preferred learning style is consistently quite small. There is also the practical consideration that teaching each student in their preferred of n teaching styles requires n times the instruction time. A large number of educators believe you get best results by just letting the teacher pick the approach to teaching they are most comfortable with.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#274

Post by afaik69 »

ErrantX wrote: post #55

So I am seeing more and more of ideas like this; but I feel the need to challenge them a bit. Not the ideal; work less, have more fulfilling lives - I am all in. But all of these initiatives are focused on the wealthier office workers and sometimes factory/shift workers who are non-customer facing. But it totally ignores the service industry which is a huge part of our society (and arguably even more so if we end up…

My hairdresser[0] in Germany pays all employees 5 days salary for 4 days of work. So, it's possible in the service industry.

[0] https://www.haar-werk.net/friseur-in/

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#275

Post by dragonwriter »

TimPC wrote: post #271
dragonwriter wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It creates unusual demand patterns on schools and daycare which you need to decide whether to run on a four or five day pattern. Schools can run a 5-day pattern even if some of their employees are on a 4-day pattern (as long as they are not the same four-day pattern). In fact, it's not unknown for various workplaces to run a 5-day every week pattern with employees on a mix of 9-8-80 two-week and 4-10-40 1-week cycl…

It's difficult and disruptive for students to be on a 5-day pattern of education with a homeroom teacher on a 4-day pattern. This basically necessitates scheduling entirely non-core subjects on the fifth day, potentially even resulting in multiple sessions of gym in a single day. It's also not clear to me you can viably do this without increasing costs unless the school is free to choose which of the four days the te…

> It's difficult and disruptive for students to be on a 5-day pattern of education with a homeroom teacher on a 4-day pattern.

Is it? In most secondary environments I’ve seen “homeroom”, if it exists at all (which tends to only be early secondary, like middle school, and not consistently even there), is simply a regular class to which added time for administrivia like daily announcements is added.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#276

Post by Consultant32452 »

srfwx wrote: post #266
Consultant32452 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I produce as much as my teammates working about 1-2 hours 5-days per week. It would be a massive social problem for most employers to let me get paid what I make and have everyone see me only working 1-2 hours per day. That's why I had to switch to consulting. My case is extreme, but that's why you won't see employers letting people have visibly different work arrangements.

Have you ever considered that your teammates may be working 1-2 hours each day too ?

Some aren't working at all.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#277

Post by quickthrower2 »

ThalesX wrote: post #128
quickthrower2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers would need to trust the team members

One can give all the trust in the world, but a good manager must also align incentives towards business goals and create a structure for tracking progress. Adding on top of that care and integration for the personal preferences of the team members… that would truly be a sight to behold.

I agree with that.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#278

Post by dsr_ »

TimPC wrote: post #269
Cerium wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A substantial portion of the service sector runs with a seven day schedule, we don't push schools to offer seven day service in response? Perhaps having more mixed working arrangements will improve societal flexibility and better serve all people.

I think it's a legitimate problem though that schools and daycares operate predominantly on a five day schedule now that works for a large number of workers. If we go to a model where we have something resembling a 50/50 split between longer 4-day work weeks and shorter 5-day work weeks we end up with a huge problem in how to schedule services so that they work for the majority of people. There will be overwhelming p…

I can't help but feel that you are arguing that it would be hard on everyone if the current standard was not maintained, while ignoring that the current standard is not maintained.

Here are occupations that generally don't have a M-F 9-5 work cycle right now:

police, firefighters, the vast majority of people who work in healthcare including nurses and doctors, restaurants, hospitality, janitorial, retail sales, plumbers, HVAC techs, construction workers, taxi/lyft/uber/whatever drivers, truck drivers, and customer service.

Re: Ask HN: 6-hour workdays more important than 4-day workweeks IMO

#280

Post by [deleted] »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #17
s5300 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some rich people in the US who endorse 996. Calacanis being one. Imagine trying to be a bigger piece of shit. Japan isn’t even 996 & they’re going to have to start forcing people to have kids at gunpoint or kinda implode as a nation. Near purely because of their abysmal work culture. I recall when Cards Against Humanity paid for their overseas factory workers a day off by paying for a full factory day with…

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