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"Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

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11–20 of 28 posts

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#11
post #9

My problem with patent-overload is that it's turned into a protection scheme. Big company approaches me and my little company and says, "We think we have some patent issues". And I say, "Really? Unlikely, we wrote everything from scratch." And they reply, "How much money did you make last year?" And I ask, "What's the got to do with anything?" And they say, "do you know how much it will cost you to defend against our…

So, the legal system is broken instead?

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#12
The system has always been defective to a significant degree. The difference today is that the information age makes it that much easier to abuse and run afoul of the system. It's certain that there have been many independent invention "patent violations" throughout recent history that flew under the radar of the legal system merely due to the difficulty of researching such things in an era of less pervasive communications.

We've sped up the rpms on the centrifuge and the system is shaking itself apart.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#13
post #9

My problem with patent-overload is that it's turned into a protection scheme. Big company approaches me and my little company and says, "We think we have some patent issues". And I say, "Really? Unlikely, we wrote everything from scratch." And they reply, "How much money did you make last year?" And I ask, "What's the got to do with anything?" And they say, "do you know how much it will cost you to defend against our…

Really, it's as if paying off your friendly neighbourhood patent troll will become just another ugly cost of doing business.

Maybe they should set up an online patent-protection store where developers can setup an account to ease the friction (probably wouldn't have a one-click checkout though).

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#14
post #9

My problem with patent-overload is that it's turned into a protection scheme. Big company approaches me and my little company and says, "We think we have some patent issues". And I say, "Really? Unlikely, we wrote everything from scratch." And they reply, "How much money did you make last year?" And I ask, "What's the got to do with anything?" And they say, "do you know how much it will cost you to defend against our…

It sounds a lot like how the Mafia operates...

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#15
Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention.

The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but not have any of the risk. The only way to solve this is to limit the reward to match the risk: a patent owner should only be entitled to damages that are directly comparable to the revenue they themselves are making from the same invention in the same market. If a patent troll is doing nothing with an invention then it should fall into the public domain.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#16
post #11
post #9

My problem with patent-overload is that it's turned into a protection scheme. Big company approaches me and my little company and says, "We think we have some patent issues". And I say, "Really? Unlikely, we wrote everything from scratch." And they reply, "How much money did you make last year?" And I ask, "What's the got to do with anything?" And they say, "do you know how much it will cost you to defend against our…

So, the legal system is broken instead?

Yes. Like in most of Europe, whoever looses the case should have to pay BOTH sides legal fees.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#17
post #14
post #9

My problem with patent-overload is that it's turned into a protection scheme. Big company approaches me and my little company and says, "We think we have some patent issues". And I say, "Really? Unlikely, we wrote everything from scratch." And they reply, "How much money did you make last year?" And I ask, "What's the got to do with anything?" And they say, "do you know how much it will cost you to defend against our…

It sounds a lot like how the Mafia operates...

Right, it's a protection racket. Except that software isn't anyone's turf in particular, there are no gang wars to keep the troll count low, so you'll end up paying, paying, and paying again until you are big enough to spend a lot on IP lawyers. Then the lawyers start to twiddle their thumbs, and you begin to acquire your own patent portfolio. Then you become part of the problem.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#18
post #15

Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention. The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but…

Even that has issues. Say you invent X and start selling it locally. You're making a few $100k p/m and growing fast. The global market could be in the billions but your planning on growing one town at a time.

Meanwhile, another company with resources uses your invention and decides to grow 10 cities at a time. They can be 10X bigger than you very fast. They're eating your lunch, even if you'd only have made a fraction of what they made in that period.

That said, patents aren't supposed to be for inventors, they're supposed to be for society, to help stuff get invented and produced. Society benefits more from the larger company.

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#19
post #15

Patent trolls are a symptom of the problem that the patent system misidentifies the risk involved in invention. The concept is to mitigate the risk of innovating by adding reward. But the reward in the patent system is associated to the conceptualization of the idea which (mostly) carries no risk. The risk comes when you try to invest in that idea to bring it to market. So patent trolls can capture all the reward but…

That's an insightful post. There is great risk in actually getting an idea to market. However, there is risk at the conceptualization phase too. I'd guess 1 in 100 patents are actually worth anything. There is a sort of yield management that goes on.

I don't see any solution to the mess other than abolishing software patents. That way you have a level playing field. I really don't think that will stop researchers from innovating, nor will it stop those with a purse from funding them. But yeah ... not gonna happen in my lifetime :(

Re: "Patent trolls could be the end of Silicon Valley" says Tim O'Reilly

#20

My biggest problem with patent-overload isn't Apple v. Google v. Amazon, and lost innovation, it's Big Company v. Samll Company (particularly the physical engineering kind), with large legal departments versus smaller ones. E.g. "please top infringing on our bs ethernet connector patent"

One solution could be to give patent amnesty to small independent organizations - less than X million in revenue. That would at least have prevented LodSyS from going after small developers. The basis for this is recognition that a small entity would simply implode if they had to defend themselves in a court of law.
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