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Gimp 3 Beta Released

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Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#131

Post by dark-star »

bogwog wrote: post #129
dark-star wrote: post #126

It's interesting on how they tout implementing very basic usability features like these: - multi-select in some (admittedly non-standard and treeview-like) listbox... How did such a "feature" require 7 years to implement? - switching between dark and light themes with a single button... Doesn't every UI library implement this as default by now? Also, refactoring file I/O completely so that it abstracts away path sepa…

> multi-select in some (admittedly non-standard and treeview-like) listbox... How did such a "feature" require 7 years to implement? How often do you need to multi-select items on a list box? I don’t I’ve ever found myself needing to do that in the many years I’ve been a GIMP user. > switching between dark and light themes with a single button... Doesn't every UI library implement this as default by now? Which UI lib…

> How often do you need to multi-select items on a list box? I don’t I’ve ever found myself needing to do that in the many years I’ve been a GIMP user.

In other picture-editing software I use it all the time to select multiple layers to move them at the same time, or to show/hide multiple layers all at once

>> Or they could just convert everything to forward slashes which also works on every OS...

> ...except Windows.

Wrong. I have no idea where this comes from, other than Linux-fanboys re-iterating the same old story from Windows 95 over and over again. Windows has supported forward slashes as path separators since Windows 2000 (at least).

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#132

Post by Beltalowda »

kristopolous wrote: post #45
fareesh wrote: post #21

I now find myself using Photopea more than GIMP. Photopea is a browser-based photoshop clone. From what I understand it was built by just one guy, and it is in some ways better than GIMP. Pretty amazing work.

Gotta be real, Gimp's not that far off from just one guy ( https://github.com/GNOME/gimp/graphs/contributors ) We all assume there's a vast army of dedicated people behind these things. Most people do just a tiny bit and don't stick around. The reality is the core ranks are thin and the troops are exhausted. If you've got the time, they could use a hand (this is for all open source projects) They people behind them a…

> Gotta be real, Gimp's not that far off from just one guy (https://github.com/GNOME/gimp/graphs/contributors)

GitHub only shows people with an email address linked to a GitHub account in that chart; the last time I checked it was 4 or 5 people working on it regularly, which is still a very small team (none are working on it full-time) so your point still stands (it's a point I've made myself a few times before when people compare GIMP to Photoshop or the like).

The GitLab chart[1] also doesn't seem to be accurate; e.g. Mitch only has 986 commits on that one (and almost 14k on the GitHub chart).

[1]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/graphs/master

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#133

Post by boogies »

unmole wrote: post #15
robertwt7 wrote: post #2

Gimp is amazing, I'm always curious, how does GNU project keep maintaining all of these high quality software for free? do they get a lot of money from donation? where do the fund comes from to feed the developers who maintain all of these? regardless, congrats for the release! I wish them all the luck and thanks for supporting the software community

The etymology of the name notwithstanding, Gimp is not a GNU project.

[Citation needed]

https://www.gimp.org/ still describes it as the GNU Image Manipulation Program in the , in giant all caps letters at the top, and a third time at the center of the first screenfull of the main page ("This is the official website of the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)."). https://www.gimp.org/about/ also links to the GNU Project under "Important GIMP Links."

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#134

Post by bogwog »

dark-star wrote: post #131
bogwog wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> multi-select in some (admittedly non-standard and treeview-like) listbox... How did such a "feature" require 7 years to implement? How often do you need to multi-select items on a list box? I don’t I’ve ever found myself needing to do that in the many years I’ve been a GIMP user. > switching between dark and light themes with a single button... Doesn't every UI library implement this as default by now? Which UI lib…

> How often do you need to multi-select items on a list box? I don’t I’ve ever found myself needing to do that in the many years I’ve been a GIMP user. In other picture-editing software I use it all the time to select multiple layers to move them at the same time, or to show/hide multiple layers all at once >> Or they could just convert everything to forward slashes which also works on every OS... > ...except Windows…

> In other picture-editing software I use it all the time to select multiple layers to move them at the same time, or to show/hide multiple layers all at once

Fair enough. When you said "listbox", I assumed you were referring to generic listbox widgets as you might find in a filter/settings window.

> Wrong. I have no idea where this comes from, other than Linux-fanboys re-iterating the same old story from Windows 95 over and over again. Windows has supported forward slashes as path separators since Windows 2000 (at least).

It comes from the fact that a lot of native win32 APIs do not support forward slashes, and Microsoft's own documentation says that you need to use back slashes, not forward slashes (example: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/libloader...).

Most of the filesystem APIs have a preprocessing step that, among other things, can convert forward slashes automatically. However, this is not always available or desirable, and sometimes it can be disabled by an API without you realizing it. Not using the native path separator will cause your path handling code to be fragile, especially if you need to handle arbitrary user-provided paths (as GIMP does).

Also, many (all?) Windows software with a command line interface use the forward slash for arguments. For example, on a unix you may invoke a command like `ls -a` whereas the equivalent on Windows would need to be `ls /a`. Having forward slashes in your paths can lead to problems.

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#136

Post by michaelmrose »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #121
oblio wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If be interested to know what they thought was more important than adjustment layers to work on for a decade instead. Having fun developing whatever stuff they wanted, would be my guess. And if they're getting paid for this, probably doing a good job convincing whoever's paying them that that stuff is important :-)

So which is it? If it's a just for fun project why take feature requests and donations? I make a feature request I get told "well you're not paying for it...", yet they provide no way for me to pay for it. Why not have a bounty system to fund that work if that are your terms? Just feels what this project is shifts into whatever it needs to be to ensure it doesn't ever get any better or progress in any meaningful way.

Donations are driven presumably by people who are already sufficiently satisfied by current trajectory to want it to continue. Feature requests indicate that they desire to make it useful by understanding what things people want.

There is a difference between desiring to serve users needs and obligation to serve a particular need. No amount of need on your part constitutes an obligation on their part because simply you have paid them nothing and they offered you nothing other than the ability to use the current software as is or modify it. Nor indeed are they obliged to provide you a way to pay them for a particular feature although if you offered them a sufficiently large pile of money you might be able to reach a mutual understanding and certainly nothing prevents you from developing a fork or paying someone to do so right now.

A large problem with such an understanding forming is that the cost of such would be driven by the cost of expensive labor not your perception of the value to an individual end user. I have no idea what the actual cost of this is as I know nothing about their code but lets do a thought experiment.

Imagine if you will that making that happen in 2023 were to require 2 people who currently contribute to gimp part time to work on gimp full time for a year. This would in turn require replacing what they earn at their actual job including benefits. Suppose that for example required replacing $300,000 in wages. Unfortunately they may actually have long term employment that they like and not be enthused about working for one year and then going back on the job market. It might be much more feasible if it were possible to fund gimp development similarly for 5 years enabling not only your feature but others. This costs $1.5M dollars.

If someone responded to your feature request with sure thing will that be check charge or giant bag with a dollar sign I'm guessing you would laugh your ass off and move on.

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#137

Post by unmole »

boogies wrote: post #133
unmole wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The etymology of the name notwithstanding, Gimp is not a GNU project.

[Citation needed] https://www.gimp.org/ still describes it as the GNU Image Manipulation Program in the , in giant all caps letters at the top, and a third time at the center of the first screenfull of the main page ("This is the official website of the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)."). https://www.gimp.org/about/ also links to the GNU Project under "Important GIMP Links."

You are right. I don't know why I was under the impression that Gimp had moved away from the GNU project.

Gimp is listed as a GNU package: https://www.gnu.org/software/software.en.html#allgnupkgs

Unfortunately I can neither edit not delete my inaccurate comment.

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#138

Post by pbhjpbhj »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #87

I’ve come to the belief that the existence of GIMP is doing more harm than good. The software itself just isn’t anywhere near the feature parity it needs to be. The UI and workflows are just not there for what users are expecting. I can’t suggest someone learn it because it just isn’t going to serve them well in the end. But because it exists it means someone who would do it better has less incentive to do so. Not th…

My counter to this is that I've been using GIMP for what seems like two decades, it's what I'm familiar with and I'm much faster using that than other programs. I preferred Corel Draw when I used that, but hated Photoshop (for some reason it was all wrong, perhaps because I started on GIMP; but it was pretty much GIMP or nothing at the time [due to cost]). Krita has a lot going for it, and starting now I'd probably use that (with Inkscape for my needs); but I'm still more comfortable with GIMP and thankful for it.

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#139

Post by ladyanita22 »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #95
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #12

imagine a world where blender/kdenlive/gimp/libreoffice are proper alternatives to commercial software and people use them just because they are not "web based" or subscription only or avoid linux users like the plague which adobe/autodesk/microsoft do with their products.

Blender already is but unlike GIMP and Libreoffice they have people with actual vision on the team. Not just people cloning 2 decade old software badly and complaining when users request features. Every single junior who asks me what 3D software to learn I say Blender, I would have used to say C4D but Blender has improved so much. Never in a million years would I suggest GIMP or Libreoffice.

Have you tried any of both? Because that's a huge disregard for other people's work. Especially when these apps are actually pretty good for being so understaffed. They are not Photoshop or MS Office, but I'd love to see what Adobe or Microsoft could do on such little budget.

Re: Gimp 3 Beta Released

#140

Post by hitekker »

dagw wrote: post #106
blenderdt wrote: post #73

I want to like Gimp but I just can't. It always gets in my way. If I create a selection, then copy and paste, why isn't the result a new layer? Why is it something floating? I don't get that. And why do all tool settings suddenly change when I start using my Wacom instead of my mouse? Of course there are probably good answers for the above but it is just not intuitive. It's a little sad because so much time and energ…

I have been a Blender user for over 15 years. While the UI had a learning curve it always made sense to me. With Gimp this is not the case. I sometimes wonder if the people who built it also use it. Blender was designed from day 1 by and for working 3D artists that had to deliver real commercial projects. Gimp started as a university student project meant as a platform for playing with different image processing algo…

It's not just their roots that are different. Blender also once had some weird deficiencies in its UI/UX. As I recall, the developers swallowed their pride and started working alongside with designers and HCI experts. Blender matured from being a cool kid's programming club, into a professional OSS organization. Whereas GIMP seems to shun designers and HCI experts, losing out on the valuable insights that those folks could share.
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