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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is not simple good guys vs bad guys. Often it's bad guys vs bad guys.

Painting everyone with the same shade of gray is a more simplistic view of the world, not less.

In the last 25 years, which country in the world has invaded the most countries and slaughtered the most people in those countries they invaded?

NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world than Russia, even if you might think Putin the person is more evil than Biden the person.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#293
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Sweden and Finland are NOT "openly supporting" the PKK and YPG. Just copying the Erdogan propaganda is at best lazy. Nor is it correct to label these organizations as entirely "terrorist". The reality is a lot more complicated, but Erdogan would very much like you to simplify "organized Kurds = Terrorists"...

If they aren't then what's the problem? On the other hand, if the PKK is able to fundraise in Sweden and Finland like the IRA used to be able to in the US, then it seems logical for Turkey to use whatever leverage they have to decrease that activity, similar to GB. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1987/03/22/i...

In Turkish propaganda, any form of Kurds organizing themselves, be it inside Turkey our outside in Iran, Iraq or Syria, is "terrorism". Even though most of this activity is political and from a democratic standpoint quite "legitimate". Even much of what the PKK has been doing historically falls under that umbrella.

Also the Kurds are forming a state in parts of Syria and Iraq, where the "original" state is not able to restore order, especially against islamic militants. On top of that, the Turkish security forces have a long history of prosecuting Kurdish civilians. This makes the whole label of "terrorism" extremely murky and what Erdogan wants of NATO is much less nice than support against terrorists: He wants support and acquiescence in his war against Kurdish forces, including outside Turkey.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#294
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With various translation tools getting more and more powerful, is it potentially time to reconsider this policy? Something along the lines of please do English articles unless you absolutely can't?

Maybe, but I don't think so. The non-English articles that get submitted are usually current-affairs pieces. If we were seeing a lot of obscure, intellectually interesting content that really hit the HN sweet spot, that would be a stronger case—certainly such content exists in many languages. But it's not what people pick to post here.

Good point!

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#295
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything has a price

The problem may very well be that Putin has bought off or compromised Erdogan in some form. Then there is no price high enough.

Sweden is lucky that Erdogan is in power and he'll bend and do a 180 in a month max. If anyone else was in that position, this would never happen. This topic is probably the only thing that has this much mainstream support since Erdogan came to power.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the point of having a NATO member who illogically rails against new members just because Russia tells them not to?

> What is the point of having a NATO member who illogically rails against new members just because Russia tells them not to? You, I think, know very little about Turkey's politics to make a claim like that. PKK & YPG has long been a perceived thorn in Turkey's side and they have largely felt like the rest of NATO has ignored this problem if not actively antagonized them on it. To them, it's akin to as if the rest of…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#297
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think so. Turkey is in a very strategic location. Turkey has leverage and a very good chance of getting the concessions they want. Which is sad, because I care about the Kurds, and they seemed to be one of the few good, humane groups in Syria.

Seems like they're long overdue for a true Kurdistan, and Trump selling them out enraged me.

Me too. And I fear that NATO/EU will be forced to sell them out again now.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#298
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the majority want to exterminate a minority, sure. Democracy doesnt mean that they should be allowed. If "whatever they want" means independence and self determination then yes, either you believe they should have it or you give democracy the middle finger. Theres no middle ground there. Some people think ukraine should be run from Moscow and fuck what anybody in ukraine thinks. Some people think crimea should be…

It’s entirely possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea could have changed hands peacefully. It’s also possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea would have no longer wanted to leave. Russia short-circuited that by force.

It's not in the slightest bit possible. Ukraine has not offered a vote, it would not conduct a vote and Ukraines constitution prohibits such a vote.

You cannot respect democracy and want crimea returned to Ukraine.

The two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#299
post #236
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understand why most people feel this is a slippery slope. If Erdogan says that YPG is the PKK because the YPG politically support the PKK, what's preventing Netanyahu from using the same arguments against its neighbor supporting politically or selling weapons to the Hamas? China attacking India/Nepal for harboring the leader of the Free Tibet movement? You probably it is not the same, but for many, many people it is.…

Has the slope already slipped? As far as I can tell Israel regularly conducts air strikes in Syria with a claim that they are against Hamas targets. The US waged war against Taliban b/c of association with Alqaeda. I’m ask out of moderate ignorance in that I read the claims of Turkey and that of Sweden and Finland without a mechanism for deducing truth beyond various actors’ assertions. While it would be optimal if T…

You are right, of course that's why I choose this example (forgot about the reason given for the Afghanistan war, good point). I might have poorly explained my second point, but you reformulated it better.

I don't have a solution either. I'll let professional negotiators find one :)

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Painting everyone with the same shade of gray is a more simplistic view of the world, not less.

In the last 25 years, which country in the world has invaded the most countries and slaughtered the most people in those countries they invaded? NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world than Russia, even if you might think Putin the person is more evil than Biden the person.

> invaded

If we're talking about moral side of thins, then this word should be read as "unjustifiably invaded, violating international law" and US haven't actually done it once in the last 25 years.

> NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world

Only if you invade your neighbours that have defence treaties with US or partake in genocide. Not something that I, or anyone else, minds.

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