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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#281

Post by pydry »

macintux wrote: post #274
pydry wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you dont think the future of crimea should be determined by what crimeans think then you cannot pretend to have any respect for democracy.

It’s possible to respect democracy without believing that the majority of any given population should automatically get whatever they want.

If the majority want to exterminate a minority, sure. Democracy doesnt mean that they should be allowed.

If "whatever they want" means independence and self determination then yes, either you believe they should have it or you give democracy the middle finger.

Theres no middle ground there.

Some people think ukraine should be run from Moscow and fuck what anybody in ukraine thinks. Some people think crimea should be run from Kyiv and fuck what anybody in Crimea thinks. They both hate democracy.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#282

Post by macintux »

pydry wrote: post #281
macintux wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible to respect democracy without believing that the majority of any given population should automatically get whatever they want.

If the majority want to exterminate a minority, sure. Democracy doesnt mean that they should be allowed. If "whatever they want" means independence and self determination then yes, either you believe they should have it or you give democracy the middle finger. Theres no middle ground there. Some people think ukraine should be run from Moscow and fuck what anybody in ukraine thinks. Some people think crimea should be…

It’s entirely possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea could have changed hands peacefully.

It’s also possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea would have no longer wanted to leave.

Russia short-circuited that by force.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#283

Post by kX4A8o4mVmX8aW »

pydry wrote: post #278
kX4A8o4mVmX8aW wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a tension between the concepts of self-determination and territorial integrity that makes the question not so obvious. However the concept of territorial integrity has advantages for weaker nations. If self-determination were absolute then for example the U.S. could get any territory it wanted by using its immense wealth to buy off local residents. I'm sure there are some villages along the Russian border wh…

>If self-determination were absolute then for example the U.S. could get any territory it wanted by using its immense wealth to buy off local residents. I mean, yeah. Thats how panama was born for example. Colombia was kinda mad about it at the time but of all the things the US gets shit for its not even in the top 10. The US also tried to do something similar (and failed) to Kaliningrad. Only Russia objected. Theres…

The U.S.'s historical strategy has been to find or create some credible faction wherever it wanted to meddle and then support it using any means necessary, ethical or otherwise, and coerce other countries to go along with it. In purely internal matters such as against the Native American populations it sometimes bothered with some fig leaf legal cover but other times it would just take what it wanted in the most brutal ways possible. I don't think it's ever actually fairly bought off a population though, so that's not really the same thing.

You framed your earlier comment as being about democracy without qualifications. I'm wondering how far you'd go with that. Is every border territory only a 50.1% vote away from changing countries? How often can these votes be held? Do they require international observation?

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#284

Post by foverzar »

koonsolo wrote: post #242
Gravityloss wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin has been writing and speaking about this for years. He really thinks Russia should control other Slavic people, and former territories of Russia and Soviet Union etc. And it's not only Putin. Most of the other high ranking officials must have been supporting the attack into Ukraine, otherwise it would not have happened. If it was him alone against everyone else, Putin would simply have been replaced. A large po…

A few days ago I saw a video where a Fin explained that in the last 1000 years, Russia tried to invade Finland 20 times (I didn't verify this data). He claimed that about every 2 to 3 generations, this happens. This was a real eye-opener for me, and reminds me of a (probably Dutch) expression: A fox loses its hair but not its tricks.

Thousand years? 20 times seems like a comically tiny amount at that scale.

Finland had managed to be both part of Russian Empire, Sweden and hell a lot of other adventures in that huge period. That's like all the way back to Kievan Rus.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#286

Post by philistine »

pydry wrote: post #262
rmind wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruble is a weak indicator as the central bank has tools to control the exchange rate. Soviet ruble also had a strong and, for a long time, quite stable exchange rate with the US dollar. However, in Soviet Union you could not legally own foreign currency (nor you could buy Western goods and services). The exchange rate by no means indicated the economic situation in the USSR.

Weak or not it is an indicator and it is indicative of economic muscle - economic muscle we are frequently told Russia is supposed to have lost as a result of this war. This indicator shot up in the exact opposite direction all western commentators said it would. Id be interested in economic commentary by anybody who predicted this or even said it was a possibility but Im profoundly disinterested in economic commenta…

I think the debate boils down to

The other side: The ruble is up. This is indeed strange, and no one really foresaw this result. Explanations range from Putin has chosen to prop it up at the expense of other indicators to gaz trades are still high, and availability on foreign markets of rubles has dropped sharply.

Your side: Putin has shown economic muscle that no one expected he would have. There are definitely eggs on the face of the western analysts.

I don't see how both points are incompatible.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#287

Post by AnimalMuppet »

kX4A8o4mVmX8aW wrote: post #283
pydry wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If self-determination were absolute then for example the U.S. could get any territory it wanted by using its immense wealth to buy off local residents. I mean, yeah. Thats how panama was born for example. Colombia was kinda mad about it at the time but of all the things the US gets shit for its not even in the top 10. The US also tried to do something similar (and failed) to Kaliningrad. Only Russia objected. Theres…

The U.S.'s historical strategy has been to find or create some credible faction wherever it wanted to meddle and then support it using any means necessary, ethical or otherwise, and coerce other countries to go along with it. In purely internal matters such as against the Native American populations it sometimes bothered with some fig leaf legal cover but other times it would just take what it wanted in the most brut…

Even if you accept that votes can be taken by anybody and whenever, yes, you need international observer. Otherwise the vote will go the direction of whoever can coerce the locals the hardest. That's not democracy, that's not "the will of the people", that's a sham.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#288

Post by cortesoft »

willturman wrote: post #188
cortesoft wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list? Well, if my neighbor had nukes pointed at my house, I might at least care what they thought.

Reasoning with someone threatening your complete destruction seems like a shaky foundation for productive negotiation.

Sure, but not negotiating with someone threatening your complete destruction seems like an even worse option. You can't really ignore them.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#289

Post by macintux »

mcv wrote: post #175
ericmay wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd definitely be kicked out at this point if push came to shove. No doubt about that. There's no value in a member who doesn't cooperate. Both Finland and Sweden are very much aligned with the rest of NATO and if member states object to them joining you basically set the precedent that one member state (that's not the US/UK) can hold the group hostage. There's no way that would be tolerated, regardless of the str…

I really don't think so. Turkey is in a very strategic location. Turkey has leverage and a very good chance of getting the concessions they want. Which is sad, because I care about the Kurds, and they seemed to be one of the few good, humane groups in Syria.

Seems like they're long overdue for a true Kurdistan, and Trump selling them out enraged me.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#290

Post by macintux »

foverzar wrote: post #285
sofixa wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the mass kidnapping of children is literally in the definition of genocide - article 2e.

And since when is this happening?

Been reported for a while. Read a wrenching interview with a man who lost his daughter, doesn't know whether he'll ever see her again.

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-embassy-accuses-russia-of...

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