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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#131

Post by mkup »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

Previous attempts of de-escalation have gone nowhere: Russia continues to attack its neighbours and annex their territory, or create puppet separatist states (Moldovan Transnistria in 1992, Georgian South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 1990s and 2008, Ukrainian Crimea and Donbass in 2014 and now the entire territory of Ukraine).

If the Russians had succeeded with Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland would be next. Or Finland, or Sweden, or any other neighbour Russia deems weak enough to conquer with direct military force. You get my point.

Russian territorial expansion is a recurring pattern, and no amount of western self-humiliation via "de-escalation" was going to end it.

It had to end somewhere. As a Ukrainian who had to spend several weeks in evacuation in Lviv this spring, I'm glad it ended in Ukraine. (At least the new US Lend-Lease Act gives us hope that the wave of Russian territorial expansion will end in Ukraine.) Otherwise we'd have mass executions of civilians, as we had in Bucha, all over the 40 million country. A new Holocaust. For Ukrainians, as a nation, US Lend-Lease Act, military equipment aid from UK and other western nations who participated in Ramstein defence conference is the real salvation. And the day the Russian invaders are expelled would become a second Independence Day, as in the history of Kuwait and Iraq.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#132

Post by golergka »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #112
temp8964 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By invading Ukraine. LOL.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm not sure how is that relevant here?

Because if you're trying to say that US is to blame for this war, here's the newsflash: causal relationships and moral responsibility are not the same thing. Even if you knowingly provoke a criminal to do a crime (for example, by leaving your home unlocked, or by going around a bad neighbourhood in very sexy clothing), it does not in any way absolve him of decision to do the crime.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#133

Post by stjohnswarts »

rrrazdan wrote: post #35
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

Not at all. If Murmansk's importance causes Finland to be strategic then what about Crimea? Turkey blocks Russia's warm water sea access. Much more important for Turkey to be in NATO than Finland purely on the basis of geography.

What is the point of having a NATO member who illogically rails against new members just because Russia tells them not to?

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#134

Post by Hamuko »

curiousllama wrote: post #121
fabian2k wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disingenious to only state the support percentage for polls that also have a significant amount of "don't know / don't care / undecided" answers. And the polls I've seen all had a pretty large amount of responses that were not directly opposed to joining NATO. The most recent poll I've seen for Finland also has an even higher percentage of support for joining NATO now than your poll.

Not to mention, NATO can't accept any countries with an active border dispute, because it would immediately trigger Article 4. As a result, Russia has an established strategy of taking a slice of any country that considers joining NATO. It worked in both Georgia & Ukraine. If you don't move quick, you won't move. This is the purpose of representative democracy - to allow trusted leaders to make decisions like this on…

And if you try to hold a referendum on joining NATO, Russia will be all over it like nobody's business. I'm glad that we decided to not have a referendum and considering how pro-NATO the opinion polling is, I'm not really worried for the death of democracy.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#135

Post by xhevahir »

notorandit wrote: post #126

Quoted post unavailable.

> And you don't even border to Russia!

The Russian threat to Sweden isn't merely academic. There was even speculation a few years ago that Russia might invade the Swedish island of Gotland in order to better position their missiles towards Western Europe.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#136

Post by stjohnswarts »

kome wrote: post #37
m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

All the US wants is for Russia to get out of Ukraine. They have not been there in decades. It's an easy request. France and Germany know that if Putin gets anything out of this he'll just attack Ukraine (even if he pulls out today) again until he gets what he wants.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#137

Post by stjohnswarts »

cm2187 wrote: post #42
kome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

But what do you mean by de-escalate? Give territorial concessions to Russia?

I suspect is exactly what they want.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#138

Post by rmind »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #112
temp8964 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By invading Ukraine. LOL.

Quoted post unavailable.

The very concept of a nuclear country being "pushed" (what does that even mean?) to wage a war against a country, which is more than 3x smaller in population and around 5x weaker economically, is simply delusional.

Russia attempted to wage a 19th century style conquest: brutal and open territorial grab including the subjugation and repression of the local population.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#140

Post by KptMarchewa »

notorandit wrote: post #130
fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

Sweden doesn't neighbour with Russia. Only Finland and Norway!

This stuff happens constantly.

https://fortune.com/2022/04/30/sweden-says-russian-plane-vio...

>Only Finland and Norway!

There is bridge/tunnel to Denmark too. I guess you could call it land connection.

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