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Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#191

Post by sundvor »

Looking at this with sadness from the point of view of being a Rotel preamp+amp owner with equally old Infinity speakers. Onkyo has had some quality products over the years.

The Kappas all lost their surrounds but was able to replace them 15 years ago - they came back better than new, and still sound amazing.

Preamp only has a DB25 connector for 5.1 surround; hooks up to RCA outputs on an archaic, yet high end ASUS Xonar sound card. And all of my media goes through my 10 year old Windows 10 HTPC (recently refurbished with a new case, cooling and storage) and controlled by a Logitech wireless keyboard.

I love watching movies, YouTube etc on my 6 year old 65" Samsung that's simply a dumb display like that. Couldn't be easier to use; very performant. Beats a "tv app only" experience out of the waters.

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#192

Post by emkoemko »

wctawcta wrote: post #101
alasdair_ wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sonos still has severe limitations and I regret buying two 5.1 setups from them. As a simple example: there is no 7.1 support at all and the Atmos support is a sort of faked 5.1.2 support where the upward firing speakers try to bounce some sounds off the ceiling. Sonos only supports 2.4GHz (no 5GHz support at all) so in a congested area network degradation is a big issue. Codec support is limited as well. For example…

I don't this contradicts the "gone the way of the DSLR market" claim. Sonos and similar systems are simply good enough for most people. Whether it's TVs, cameras, surround sound systems, we reached a point of diminishing returns by cramming in more pixels or speakers. At that point, you're competing on factors like convenience. There will still be markets for 7.1+ surround sound or DSLR cameras, but they're smaller n…

DSLR just got replaced by mirrorless basically same thing but without a mirror, cameras still have a more tech advancements to come, better EVF,global shutter, lower noise, higher fps, better AF, better metering, better IS, better battery life etc etc, a bit difference to a speaker that can only improve audio quality and at this point i probably can't tell the difference between a good 20 year old speaker and one bought today.

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#193

Post by Nursie »

alasdair_ wrote: post #66
rixrax wrote: post #59

I feel that the AV-receiver market has gone the way of the DSLR market. Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a separate AVR) simply got good enough. Thus the need for buying a separate AVR to drive your Dolby / DTS / etc. setup has all but vanished except maybe for the most determined audiophiles (and even most of these would do well to simply get a compact wireless speaker setup instead of some monstr…

Sonos still has severe limitations and I regret buying two 5.1 setups from them. As a simple example: there is no 7.1 support at all and the Atmos support is a sort of faked 5.1.2 support where the upward firing speakers try to bounce some sounds off the ceiling. Sonos only supports 2.4GHz (no 5GHz support at all) so in a congested area network degradation is a big issue. Codec support is limited as well. For example…

> if your source outputs in DTS

This was (finally) remedied relatively recently, but Sonos sound bars now support DTS.

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#194

Post by emkoemko »

kllrnohj wrote: post #130
rixrax wrote: post #59

I feel that the AV-receiver market has gone the way of the DSLR market. Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a separate AVR) simply got good enough. Thus the need for buying a separate AVR to drive your Dolby / DTS / etc. setup has all but vanished except maybe for the most determined audiophiles (and even most of these would do well to simply get a compact wireless speaker setup instead of some monstr…

If AVRs are DSLRs, then Sonos is Leica, not the iPhone. Sonos is the expensive option that found & cemented a niche audience on an experience. Soundbars are what's killing AVRs for what's left of the 'home theater' market. They're much easier to setup and deliver a good enough experience. For everyone else, it's laptops & tablets with maybe a pair of headphones.

yea but AVRs didn't get replaced with better tech like DSLRs did with MLC's

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#195

Post by Marsymars »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #166
supernovae wrote: post #149

I switched to sonos and never looked back. I had a lot of Onkyo over the years and it always felt like they should have gone the software route much sooner. ultimately i think smart tvs and roku were a bigger part of the receiver demise - it just didn’t fit the receiver mindset and the experience sucked sonos wasn’t cheap but i’m on year 7 and it still works and i only saw one product refresh on soundbar but my old o…

The convenience / sound quality balance has shifted because things like Sonos are very convenient, even though the sound quality has, if anything, gone down for the price. Certainly the convenience of streaming has curtailed the AVR market, since streaming has shit audio. But SPDIF is limiting you to DD at best which is 640kbit/s IIRC. Steaming services are often DD+ which won't go over SPDIF. I've got discs, so look…

> But SPDIF is limiting you to DD at best which is 640kbit/s IIRC. Steaming services are often DD+ which won't go over SPDIF.

Yeah, but an Apple TV or HTPC or w/e can transcode your DD+ media to DD in realtime.

(And current Sonos products support HDMI.)

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#196

Post by Frost1x »

wctawcta wrote: post #101
alasdair_ wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sonos still has severe limitations and I regret buying two 5.1 setups from them. As a simple example: there is no 7.1 support at all and the Atmos support is a sort of faked 5.1.2 support where the upward firing speakers try to bounce some sounds off the ceiling. Sonos only supports 2.4GHz (no 5GHz support at all) so in a congested area network degradation is a big issue. Codec support is limited as well. For example…

I don't this contradicts the "gone the way of the DSLR market" claim. Sonos and similar systems are simply good enough for most people. Whether it's TVs, cameras, surround sound systems, we reached a point of diminishing returns by cramming in more pixels or speakers. At that point, you're competing on factors like convenience. There will still be markets for 7.1+ surround sound or DSLR cameras, but they're smaller n…

With DSLRs my main complaint to this day is still the lack of a good modular lens system for phones (I understand some of the challenges and tradeoffs). For most people's camera habits (selfies, food shots, group pictures...) the lenses your modern flagship phone provides are mostly great.

What's seriously lacking though is in the say 50-70+mm focal length range. I have an old Canon DSLR in my office storage collecting dust I had to quickly dust off and throw some batteries in to get some shots at the edge of my yard a few weeks back to capture some unique wildlife that was hanging out. With my flagship premiere phone I simply couldn't capture the moment, no matter the hope of digital zoom techniques and a built in "zoom" lens. Stepping closer would have killed the opportunity.

My 10+ year old DSLR was there to save the day. Quickly rummaged out my 400 mm lens and simply stabilized on a table and got mostly the shots I wanted. My smartphone cameras have been good enough and convient enough to capture most things I want but I really wish there was a mount system for small portable optics

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#197

Post by spindle »

leokennis wrote: post #102
rob74 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem though - the people who treat "listening to music" as an activity of its own are getting fewer and fewer. I listen to a lot of music, but I mostly do it while commuting, while programming etc., not in the living room. I even have a good old stereo that's served me well for over 20 years now (Sony, not Onkyo), but it mostly only serves as better PC speakers nowadays. I still play a CD on it occasion…

I think “listening to music as an activity” and “buying, tweaking and upgrading expensive audio setups” are two separate activities that often overlap but do not require each other. As an example, I fiercely enjoy sitting on my couch with my eyes closed listening to full albums of the White Stripes or Stars of the Lid or Boards of Canada or Sufjan Stevens on my AirPods Max, streamed via Bluetooth from my iPhone. Ever…

Speaking as an audiophile, although I don't exactly agree with your specific choice of headphones (I have to say that or I wouldn't be an audiophile) I strongly agree with using good headphones driven by any old thing. Audio quality these days only really depends on the transducers - i.e. whatever converts things to or from electricity, which, unless you've got a turntable, means just your headphones and/or speakers. Dealing with audio while it's in the electrical domain is a solved problem and your iPhone does it as well as the most expensive equipment.

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#198

Post by chmod600 »

FpUser wrote: post #180
chmod600 wrote: post #77

There's no doubt that, for a lot of people, there is just a better convenience/quality trade-off. I had a good size Onkyo system for watching movies and I configured it meticulously. But it's hard to explain to others why there is so much ceremony and bulk, especially when watching habits degenerate from immersive movies to binge watching netflix serieses. Part of the experience with hobbies is some kind of sacrifice…

>"when watching habits degenerate from immersive movies" Excellent movie does not have to be "immersive". I think your statement sounds rather snobbish.

I was talking about myself. My attention to anything I watch or listen to has degenerated.

I believe it's related to the hyper-convenience of netflix and series with autoplay.

I guess you can call that snobbish, as well as my comment about boxed wine. But if so, I guess I'm making a case for snobbery?

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#199

Post by Nav_Panel »

spindle wrote: post #197
leokennis wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “listening to music as an activity” and “buying, tweaking and upgrading expensive audio setups” are two separate activities that often overlap but do not require each other. As an example, I fiercely enjoy sitting on my couch with my eyes closed listening to full albums of the White Stripes or Stars of the Lid or Boards of Canada or Sufjan Stevens on my AirPods Max, streamed via Bluetooth from my iPhone. Ever…

Speaking as an audiophile, although I don't exactly agree with your specific choice of headphones (I have to say that or I wouldn't be an audiophile) I strongly agree with using good headphones driven by any old thing. Audio quality these days only really depends on the transducers - i.e. whatever converts things to or from electricity, which, unless you've got a turntable, means just your headphones and/or speakers.…

I have a pair of nice headphones (Hifiman Aryas, planar magnetics) that need to be driven fairly hard compared to most dynamics, and to that end, I've found that an outboard DAC + amp with enough juice to drive them properly makes a big difference. And not an "unnoticeable to audiophiles only" difference but a very obvious one.

Re: Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy

#200

Post by Nav_Panel »

initplus wrote: post #96
Fwirt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all comes down to demand I guess... Most people seem to like Beats headphones or think their Airpods have top quality sound and don't care that $200 headphones exist that blow them out of the water. Most people use bluetooth with low quality codecs that distort the sound. In addition, most people listen to their music on streaming services that compress the heck out of tracks that are already heavily (dynamic rang…

Streaming services don't compress dynamic range, rather the opposite - because every streaming service employs loudness normalization the loudness wars have largely ended. Compressing your track to hell in an effort to get it to sound louder doesn't work anymore because every streaming service will just normalize it anyway. Spotify at least uses 320kbps vorbis for their "high quality" setting which is at the point wh…

> the loudness wars have largely ended

I've been digging up a lot of remastered 80s albums from the last 5-7 years (mainly Japanese stuff), and I can 100% tell you that this is not the case. The engineers may not be sucking every last decibel out of the tracks anymore, but they're still compressed to hell, dynamic range often 5-10dB less than the original version straight off the 80s-era CD.

If you think about the way normalization works, there's still benefit to slapping a master limiter on top of it and pushing it to the point where normalization doesn't require any gain, because at least then you have control over the final mastering chain. But I don't think this is the reason, and I don't really know why they still juice it hard. Maybe for car stereos, or because phone amps are weak, or because they're not thinking about Spotify specifically.

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