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Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

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Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The secret sauce is most likely TSMC 5nm.

No, that’s cope. There isn’t any secret sauce. It’s just well designed on every level. You won’t match its power/performance by doing one thing and suddenly making it there. Intel’s process is quite close to TSMC’s already.

The Alder Lake node is about equivalent to TSMC's N7, maybe 10% better. N5, the node Apple is using for M1, is about 1.8x the density of N7 with 40% lower power usage.

AMD and Intel are on similar nodes at the moment, but Apple has a very notable advantage. It's not "secret sauce" so much as paying many billions for exclusive access.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#212
post #80

You get a bunch of smart hardware guys into a room, they design this funky exotic architecture. Then the software goes "Allocate these threads to whatever is idle" and suddenly you've completely lost any possible advantage and are thrashing around with no idea what you're doing. The big-little architecture from Apple was accompanied by software that basically handles that for you. From what I heard there were similar…

So true, my experience with the BIG.little ARM platform and a regular Linux kernel is that you always end up with the wrong scheduling and the system underperforms because it uses the little CPU for a compute-intensive single-thread task… I'll just avoid these kind of systems.

I thought that was fixed with Kernel 5.15.35

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-51...

Did you have this kernel, or an earlier one? (Perhaps there're still many problems to fix)

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 process node behind. Intel 10nm has similar or better transistor density as TSMC 7nm.

You're right. But even being one behind, it outperforms M1, with lower efficiency. Thus reasonable to speculate that a process node advancement would at least put Intel's chip on par with M1 on both perf and efficiency

> Thus reasonable to speculate that a process node advancement would at least put Intel's chip on par with M1 on both perf and efficiency

We'll see, but I highly doubt that Intel-at-equivalent-of-TSMC-5nm will be performance/watt competitive with the M1. Apple gets that power efficiency via an extremely wide-and-deep design that intentionally trades off a surprisingly low max clock ceiling (3.2GHz) for power efficiency while maintaining an absurdly high IPC (something like 75% higher than Intel's IPC at only one process node smaller) that makes it much more competitive on performance than conventional industry wisdom ever expected (there is and has been for years a strong belief that a design as wide as Apple's would be grossly inefficient because you could not possibly extract enough instruction level parallelism to keep so many decoders/execution units saturated -- hence we've spent over a decade with 4-5 wide frontends being the "practical maximum" that allows them to still target ~5GHz turbo speeds, which was believed to be basically the best/only path to high performance within what was believed to be the limit of "achievable" IPC. The M1 blows these fundamental assumptions out of the water).

So Intel makes conventional design decisions that make up the performance of their lower clock-for-clock IPC by turboing well north of 5GHz, at the cost of consuming something like 7x the max power of the M1. A single node shrink isn't going to buy them a 75% increase in IPC (their last 4 or 5 node shrinks combined haven't bought them that much IPC increase), so Intel@equivalent-of-TSMC-5nm still going to have to burn power like crazy to stay competitive on performance, and that's going to cost them efficiency that the node shrink just can't paper over.

It will lead in absolute perf, but its not going to be nearly as efficient.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Intel's latest chip has better performance than M1 despite being two process nodes behind. So not sure what you're going on about

Apple optimises for performance per watt. That the biggest Mac Studio is almost silent when fully loaded is remarkable when compared to my Intel desktops that start screaming the moment I start video conferencing.

apple's performance per watt is a remarkable accomplishment. but the second half of your comment has more to do with the anemic thermal design of windows OEMs than anything else. my intel desktop (9700k with 5ghz all-core OC) is also barely audible while running anything less intense than prime95. it just takes a large air cooler with a sensible fan curve. dell could easily do better with a custom case if they actually cared.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD does not beat Intel [1] unless we limit the CPUs to the same wattage (see efficiency benchmarks below). [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/ryzen-7-5800x3d-vs-core...

If that’s the game we want to play, there’s always POWER to show what you can pull off with an unlimited power (no pun intended) budget.

not really. for whatever reason, ryzen cpus have very little headroom for overclocking. no matter how much you increase the voltage, you're not gonna get much more performance. intel has increasingly pushed the limits of their designs over the last few generations, but you can usually get more performance with aggressive voltage settings and beefy cooling.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#216

Anyone else slightly annoyed that the CPUID had to be made the same for both P & E cores, just to accommodate DRM? Making it harder for all software to properly utilize the technology effectively.

It’s not just DRM; It’s about being homogeneous. If a process is on an E core and checks CPUID to see that AVX-512 isn’t available, it won’t execute those instructions even if AVX-512 was supported on a P core. As Agner said:

> It is completely unrealistic that an application program can handle this situation in a reasonable manner and optimally allocate different threads to the different cores.

A suggestion I saw here a lot was “pretend to support it, but detect attempts to use the instructions and pin the task to the P cores.” This would have issues with libraries like libc that would attempt to vectorize themselves and end up forcing an E core appropriate process onto a P core.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#217
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a real shame we haven’t learned to use more threads and cores in our software. It’s not like having dozens of small cores is something new.

I wonder if we’ll see more of a movement towards virtual threads Java Loom style where cheap threads in the language and cheap cores on the cpu will combine to create a programming style where you’ll just dispatch little worklets all over the place without worry about “is this a large enough amount of work to justify a thread” the way we do now. I also wonder if that will cause a trend towards optimizing startup late…

I think there’s a Smalltalk implementation that tries to do something like that.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD beats them because they are a process node ahead. Dunno why every comment implies there's some design gap that leads to M1 or AMD being more powerful or efficient. It's 90% the process node. There is no magic design sauce that makes those chips better. The big/little design change did seem to improve performance quite a bit for Intel, even using the same manufacturing node as before

There is a massive design gap between all Apple designed chips and non Apple designed chips. Apple’s chips are ridiculously humongous. They’re built for extremely wide, high performance applications for the past 10 years. A single A14 core can do 64 32-bit floating point operations in a single clock cycle. AMD/Intel were long at 16 operations and only the latest Intel went up to 32 operations.

> AMD/Intel were long at 16 operations and only the latest Intel went up to 32 operations.

Intel has had 256-bit dual-issue FMA since Haswell (2013); that's 32 flops/cycle/core. AVX-512 doubled the vector length for Xeon Phi and was generally available in 2017 Skylake.

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#219

Personally I don't really see a point in having a hybrid architecture like this unless it'll lead to massively increased core counts, and so far it doesn't look like it does. AMD still beats Intel in both core counts and power efficiency, and they're only using P cores so... what's the point of having E cores? But maybe that's just because it's a first generation technology for Intel? I hope things improve in the fut…

I think Intel still wins at certain important metrics, eg memory latency, that can have an impact on certain workloads. Also stuff like:

- some LAPACK-style libraries select slow routines for AMD cpus

- better understanding of / support for performance counters and suchlike

Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake

#220

My understanding is that Intel boosts power so a single core can chew through a program quicker than being inherently energy efficient (performance-per-watt). Most of the time this benefits Intel, because a core will boost-up-then-down quicker over completion of the program than a more efficient AMD processor core. (This is my layman understanding.) I solidly believe AMD is the king for efficiency, but I wish I could…

Besides hybrid cores, Intel and AMD are using the same techniques. They both turbo and they have the same low-power modes. This year Intel is slightly ahead in performance and AMD has longer battery life but next year it will probably be different.
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