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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#991

Post by dieortin »

nevermindiguess wrote: post #986
rich_sasha wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, plenty of potential things. In strictly defence terms, they buy weaponry from US and Germany. Hungarian air force operates Swedish Gripen fighters and thus most likely relies on Sweden at least for spare parts (which military jets need lots of) so here's another pressure point. They are big beneficiaries of EU funding (not a NATO thing but this is all intertwined) and already at odds with EU rules, which could…

Didn’t the US/EU take the high moral of self determination for every country, when supporting Ukraine’s actions? So, if Hungary “self determines” to veto access to NATO, which is its right according to NATO’s rules, why punish it and suffer consequences? It would be the same as Russia invading Ukraine to punish it for “self determining” its choice to join NATO or the EU. I don’t care about rhetoric and window dressin…

If you consider vetoing another country “self determination”, then you can consider punishing a country for its veto “self determination” too.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#992

Post by dieortin »

nevermindiguess wrote: post #987
serpix wrote: post #109

As a Finnish citizen, reservist this has been a very emotional spring. Both of my grandfathers were in the war with Russia. Both of my grandmothers had to leave and burn their homes in the areas annexed by Russia. Twice. I am 100% for Nato.

This is great. You will enjoy fighting Russia then. Although they never had any intention to fight you country just until you government was about to give it a reason now. But I respect your right to self determine your future - no matter how foolish.

They never have any intention to fight any country, right until the moment they invade it and reduce entire cities to rubble.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#993

Post by dragonwriter »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #69
thematrixturtle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This more or less seals Finland applying for NATO membership. However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. Russia is also obviously deeply unhappy about this and will do its best to disrupt the process via direct and indirect pressure.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

> I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

The big questions are over Hungary and Turkey; Hungary because Orbán is somewhat pro-Russian and has opposed some EU and NATO moves already wrt Ukraine, and Erdogan for somewhat similar reasons, and because he has publicly stated that he is not in favor of Sweden and Finland joining.

OTOH, I think the general expectation is that those are surmountable issues.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#994

Post by nevermindiguess »

dieortin wrote: post #991
nevermindiguess wrote: post #986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t the US/EU take the high moral of self determination for every country, when supporting Ukraine’s actions? So, if Hungary “self determines” to veto access to NATO, which is its right according to NATO’s rules, why punish it and suffer consequences? It would be the same as Russia invading Ukraine to punish it for “self determining” its choice to join NATO or the EU. I don’t care about rhetoric and window dressin…

If you consider vetoing another country “self determination”, then you can consider punishing a country for its veto “self determination” too.

I agree. Each one of them is taking actions to self-determine their future. Ethical right and wrong are orthogonal to the issue of self determination.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#995

Post by oblivion »

piva00 wrote: post #945
shreyshnaccount wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To stray from the topic, the double game phrase does make sense to me, possibly because it's also a Hindi phrase

Same for me as a Brazilian, jogo duplo means literally double-game and it's a pretty popular expression. Probably in Portugal and other Portuguese-speaking countries as well.

Same in Romanian, "joc dublu". I suspect it's common in latin based languages or maybe all indoeuropean languages, seeing how it's the same in Hindi.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#996

Post by DocTomoe »

trasz wrote: post #975
DocTomoe wrote: post #973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... which was not the reason given for the war of aggression initiated by NATO.

Oh, so now the problem is that NATO stopped the wrong genocide? :-D

The one genocide you mentioned stopped by itself four years earlier.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#997

Post by mcv »

nevermindiguess wrote: post #988
mcv wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody tells you: "I'm going to beat you up if you ask for help", you should probably ask for help. It's not an effective kind of threat, because he's probably going to beat you up at some point anyway.

Actually no! You should probably notask for help because it has a non zero probability that you will not be beat up, whereas if you do it has an almost certain probability that you will since you have just been warned.

You should get help when there's an opportunity to do so, so he won't be able to beat you up anymore. Surrendering to bullies is never a good idea.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#998

Post by yencabulator »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #658
Thaxll wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA is playing a dangerous game atm, they're not in Europe and don't depend on Russian energies. They just want Russia to sink and don't really care about the fate of Europe.

Finland and Sweden don't depend on Russian energies either.

Russia just shut down their electricity export to Finland, Finland shrugged and made up the 10% difference with a combo of local production and buying from Sweden.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#999

Post by alangibson »

vkoskiv wrote: post #935
alangibson wrote: post #774

The actions of a Russian leader directly resulting in their border with NATO growing by 1500 km has got to go down as one of the all time great strategic eff-ups. If this whole fiasco does result in WWIII, it'll be because of Finland joining NATO.

> If this whole fiasco does result in WWIII, it'll be because of Finland joining NATO. No. It will have been because fascist Russia invaded Ukraine.

You don't need to virtue signal. It's obvious that Russian aggression started all this.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#1000

Post by ngcc_hk »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #18
fsloth wrote: post #2

There was some discussion on plausible NATO membership of Finland and Sweden. At that point the disucssion was based on guestimates from media. But now it's official. This is not the NATO membership application, but a statement from the political leadership in Finland that they support and suggest parliament proceeds with the application process with maximum urgency. The President and Prime Minister of Finland have p…

This more or less seals Finland applying for NATO membership. However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. Russia is also obviously deeply unhappy about this and will do its best to disrupt the process via direct and indirect pressure.

Think and re-imagination needed.

That is a problem like eu that need to be handled, especially now that turkey is in the way. I think one has to rethink. The key is what are these military alliance is for. For democracy then we can have an alternative one.

A new alliance covering South Korea, japan, Taiwan, Australia, eu, Sweden, Finland, Canada …. Soviet Union is gone.

Turkey is a liability as it is not a democracy. And it is a problem.

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