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Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

advisorybikelanes.com

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Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#71

Post by mjmsmith »

alephxyz wrote: post #51
cowmoo728 wrote: post #9

I recently did a few consecutive full day bicycle trips around the Netherlands and rode on many roads like this. I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. I would never ride on one of these in the US. I can already imagine the Amazon delivery van or work truck parked in the bicycle section, forcing me into the center. I can also imagine the impatient drivers accelerating way beyond the speed l…

Seriously. I'm in Canada but I regularly see drivers cut through bike lanes to get in and out of parking lots without checking for bikes, or turn through a bike lane at an intersection without checking their blind spots. Even seen someone drive over a concrete curb and on a protected bike lane to get around a slow moving garbage truck. I never feel safe on shared streets unless there's a physical barrier between cars…

In NYC, drivers regularly drive through "hardened" bike lanes, when they're not crashing into the concrete separator.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#72

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

cameldrv wrote: post #69
samatman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American it was immediately clear to me the sort of road this website is suggesting we replace with edge lane roads. They are two lane, dotted-white divided, and limited to 45mph. Very common rural and exurban pattern. This might not have been as clear outside of the North American context.

On a 45mph road though that's a closing speed of 90mph assuming everyone's following the speed limit. It seems crazy to me to have opposing traffic sharing a lane at those speeds.

the roads this is meant for are mostly empty, so you have a long time to see someone coming.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#73

Post by murphyslab »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #9

I recently did a few consecutive full day bicycle trips around the Netherlands and rode on many roads like this. I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. I would never ride on one of these in the US. I can already imagine the Amazon delivery van or work truck parked in the bicycle section, forcing me into the center. I can also imagine the impatient drivers accelerating way beyond the speed l…

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing.

A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture.

In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with other bicycle commuter.

In Canada, it's less common for children to ride bicycles to school. Busses are far more common or parents dropping off their kids at the kiss-n-ride. When kids do ride bicycles, it's for sport.

So if a Canadian driver sees a person riding a bicycle, he or she does not see that person as an equal; someone who is also using the road to commute. They tend to see the bicycle commuter as someone who is intruding on their space, using the road (which is for commuting) for sport. And there is some small proportion of self-appointed citizen police who will decide to "teach them a lesson", much like you have with drivers who go about break-checking. It does not take many of those experiences to instill a sense of terror for those who try to commute by bicycle.

Additionally, in the Netherlands people who drive to work still frequently ride their bicycles to run errands. Need a carton of volle melk from the Albert Heijn or Jumbo? Just hop on your bicycle and ride 5 minutes. In the Netherlands there are very few food deserts [0] and small, well-stocked grocery stores are close at hand for every neighbourhood. That's often impractical in Canada, where we have shifted to large RC Superstores and Walmart "Supercentres", often located distant to residential neighbourhoods, often located along stroads which are inhospitable to anyone but car drivers.

In the Netherlands, it's much easier to think, "well, that could be me tomorrow", when driving past a bicycle commuter. In Canada, car drivers see the bicycle commuter as an invader or alien species, "the cyclist", whom is different and perhaps even unwelcome. In Canada, I feel lucky if the car drivers just tolerate my presence on the road; In the Netherlands I felt seen as an equal.

[0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#74

Post by cameldrv »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #72
cameldrv wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a 45mph road though that's a closing speed of 90mph assuming everyone's following the speed limit. It seems crazy to me to have opposing traffic sharing a lane at those speeds.

the roads this is meant for are mostly empty, so you have a long time to see someone coming.

Fair enough but you could say the same for the cyclists. Ultimately having traffic sharing a lane with high relative speeds is dangerous. It's dangerous for the cyclist at 15mph having a car come from behind going 45mph, and it's dangerous for the car having a car driving at them at 45mph. Both a 90mph collision between two cars and a 30mph collision between a car and a bike are likely to be fatal.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#75

Post by samatman »

cameldrv wrote: post #69
samatman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American it was immediately clear to me the sort of road this website is suggesting we replace with edge lane roads. They are two lane, dotted-white divided, and limited to 45mph. Very common rural and exurban pattern. This might not have been as clear outside of the North American context.

On a 45mph road though that's a closing speed of 90mph assuming everyone's following the speed limit. It seems crazy to me to have opposing traffic sharing a lane at those speeds.

Opposing traffic is already sharing a lane at those speeds, that's what the double-white is about.

They aren't that wide and there's not a lot of traffic, the safe thing to do is in fact to stay toward the center and yield to the sides when opposing traffic is coming. This isn't that different.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#76

Post by Beltalowda »

murphyslab wrote: post #73
cowmoo728 wrote: post #9

I recently did a few consecutive full day bicycle trips around the Netherlands and rode on many roads like this. I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. I would never ride on one of these in the US. I can already imagine the Amazon delivery van or work truck parked in the bicycle section, forcing me into the center. I can also imagine the impatient drivers accelerating way beyond the speed l…

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture. In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with…

I lived in the Netherlands, England, Ireland, and New Zealand; England and Ireland are not "bike countries" either, but for the most part it was actually pretty okay cycling in the city: there are enough cyclists around, roads are small, and most people understand that the limited space needs to be shared.

New Zealand, however, was a different story. The roads are huge, US-style, and a significant number of cyclists think that the road is for them and them only which, given the design, is not even entirely invalid as such. You get aggressive drivers everywhere (including NL), but the incidence in NZ was far more often than anywhere else. I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you.

Actually the most careful (car) drivers I've seen was in Indonesia, where roads are for scooters first and cars second.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#77

Post by htkibar »

murphyslab wrote: post #73
cowmoo728 wrote: post #9

I recently did a few consecutive full day bicycle trips around the Netherlands and rode on many roads like this. I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. I would never ride on one of these in the US. I can already imagine the Amazon delivery van or work truck parked in the bicycle section, forcing me into the center. I can also imagine the impatient drivers accelerating way beyond the speed l…

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture. In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with…

Important to also note, when something exists commonly on streets, it ends up being expected.

When a bike is a random occasion, you don’t drive expecting one on every corner. Even if you hate it. This can create an interesting type of blindness to it (your brain just doesn’t register it[0]).

Even if nothing changed in terms of people’’ feelings, this would be beneficial as well (which I presume, is much more common than people wanting to punish them).

[0]: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/motr/motorcycles-a...

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#79

Post by cowmoo728 »

htkibar wrote: post #77
murphyslab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture. In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with…

Important to also note, when something exists commonly on streets, it ends up being expected. When a bike is a random occasion, you don’t drive expecting one on every corner. Even if you hate it. This can create an interesting type of blindness to it (your brain just doesn’t register it[0]). Even if nothing changed in terms of people’’ feelings, this would be beneficial as well (which I presume, is much more common t…

I've also noticed in the US that people have a built in idea of how fast a bicycle goes - roughly 20-25 km/h, the speed that the middle school and high school students go while biking to class. I can often reach 40 km/h on my road bike, but I have to pre-emptively brake as soon as someone starts a right turn or is about to pull into the road. Because they see a cyclist, assume I'm going 20 km/h, and pull out directly in my path even though I would have smashed straight into the side of their car if I had not defensively braked.

It's like their brain just shuts off estimating speed and distance as soon as they see a bicycle, it's very interesting.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#80

Post by htkibar »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #79
htkibar wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Important to also note, when something exists commonly on streets, it ends up being expected. When a bike is a random occasion, you don’t drive expecting one on every corner. Even if you hate it. This can create an interesting type of blindness to it (your brain just doesn’t register it[0]). Even if nothing changed in terms of people’’ feelings, this would be beneficial as well (which I presume, is much more common t…

I've also noticed in the US that people have a built in idea of how fast a bicycle goes - roughly 20-25 km/h, the speed that the middle school and high school students go while biking to class. I can often reach 40 km/h on my road bike, but I have to pre-emptively brake as soon as someone starts a right turn or is about to pull into the road. Because they see a cyclist, assume I'm going 20 km/h, and pull out directly…

Expectations play an interesting part for sure. To draw a parallel, this is why in the Netherlands at the moment e-bikes are scary as hell - because they are faster than the expected speed of a bike; it is harder to notice / react.
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