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Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#71

Post by nobody314159 »

yohui wrote: post #64
nobody314159 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would make more sense for Nato to attack Saudi/UAE/Bahrain etc. They buy western hardware so if we destroy a few hundred Tornadoes/Eurofighters/F16s then there are big replacement contracts to create jobs in Europe and America.

This must be sarcasm, but I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

We spend $8Bn on some new stealth fighters. We only ever use them against countries with no air defences. So the fighters never get 'used up' so there are massive job losses at BAe.

The traditional option was to fight a competent enemy - but then your own people get shot down which doesn't play well with the electorate.

A modern solution is to sell your weapons to an ally, then destroy them and then sell more of the same replacement items to the replacement government. The big advantage of that is that the replacement government is normally pretty well disposed to you - if they know whats good for them.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#72

Post by tkahn6 »

kabuks wrote: post #55
civilian wrote: post #9

I guess it's okay that he's dead, but I'm concerned about the way he was killed. A bunch of soldiers ran into his house, stripped him, dragged him through the streets, and shot him at some point. That is some Trojan War shit. I'm still not convinced that the Middle East is civilized... which is why I'm an isolationist. I'm not very reassured by this quote from the transitional government spokesperson: “We were seriou…

Depends on your definition of civilized. Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US. True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much 'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law. On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft that we have here in t…

I suspect if you were a Copt you'd have a much different perspective.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#73

Post by kb101 »

One interesting tech angle to this story and the other wars in the Middle East (Iraq and Afghanistan): the rise of remote-controlled warfare. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/...

Comparing Iraq, a messy invasion that drug on for a decade and cost hundreds of billions, to Libya, a tactical exercise that lasted a few months and cost only a billion plus, might not be a fair comparison, but there is no question that remote reconnaissance, targeting, and attack capabilities have improved dramatically since 2001. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-stealth-drone...

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#74

Post by huhtenberg »

krschultz wrote: post #63
huhtenberg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This man was evil. And he was crazy. That's what they said on TV, didn't they? Must be true then. In other words - how do you know? How do you know the picture you are being fed by the media is accurate enough to assign him a "violent death" as a proper punishment? And without a public trial at that.

Well if you don't trust the collective portrayal of dozens of different media outlets and books printed from all over the world by people of different nationality, allegiences, motives, and religions, then you really can't believe anything. And so at that point what is a trial? Couldn't that all be fake too? At some point you will have to trust something - you can't even be sure of what you see with your eyes as show…

I don't have to trust anything. I am perfectly fine with not having an opinion on a subject of Libya or Gaddafi or any other evil-du-jour. Especially, when there is oil involved (which always seems to be the case). It gets way too complicated to judge given the facts available.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#75

Post by rdtsc »

roboneal wrote: post #34
Aloisius wrote: post #3

To quote Andrew Sullivan: To rid the world of Osama bin Laden, Anwar al-Awlaki and Moammar Qaddafi within six months: if Obama were a Republican, he'd be on Mount Rushmore by now.

Amazing the shift of perspective... How many who voted for Obama (or at least against John McCain) would expect their vote would elect a President who would violate the sovereignty of Pakistan with a special forces operation, murder an American citizen without due process, and enter into armed conflict with Libya without the consultation of Congress and eventually assassinate a sitting head of state?

Those that knew what to look for saw this coming before even he ran for president.. As soon as he voted to give retroactive immunity to telecom companies spying on US citizens, it was clear what stuff he was made from.

I still very much admire his propaganda ability. His campaign was amazingly successful. Yes, Bush being Bush helped a lot, but still. The disconnect (even among the intellectual liberals who rabidly supported him) between the perception of who Obama is and who he really is, is amazing (even after all this time).

Nobody denies that it is easy to lead and brainwash ignorant masses with fears of 'terrorism', 'communism' & 'homosexuals' but one has to admire the ability to brainwash relatively liberal and intelligent people. Looking back at Obama I will mostly remember him winning the AdAge 'Marketing Campaign Of The Year' award.

http://adage.com/article/moy-2008/obama-wins-ad-age-s-market...

He put Apple, Zappos & Nike to shame.

And then him getting the Nobel Peace prize. That was just the cherry on top.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#77

Post by bluekeybox »

jellicle wrote: post #68
kabuks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of civilized. Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US. True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much 'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law. On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft that we have here in t…

Yeah, I had some questions about civilization in Egypt. Is Egypt assassinating thousands of people worldwide with anti-tank missiles fired from unmanned aircraft, on a daily basis? Because if not, then yes I'd say you compare quite well to the U.S.

Civilized =/= morally good. It's not what you do, it's how you do it.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#78

Post by jcizzle »

roboneal wrote: post #60
jcizzle wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point - "your" definition. There are billions of people in the world, any many of them disagree with your definition. Pretending your definition is the only definition is the height of egotism, and I wish that we as a people, could understand that and have sympathy and constructive conversations about the future.

Are you seriously arguing that "many" people are against the "rule of law" and some form of government "approaching a democracy"? If so, why all the dead or deposed dictators?

The Middle East and the West all have "rules of law", here are some examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution

Both were written some time ago. Both have been modified, "interpreted" or just plain ignored. People are people no matter where you go. Power ebbs and flows to different people and groups over time. You are currently born into the group with the most power. This does not make you more correct, better than, or more civilized than others. It just makes you lucky.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#79

Post by sp332 »

maratd wrote: post #76
astine wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means Gaddafi, but he was killed by Libyans, not Americans.

I don't think the Libyans would have been able to kill him without our help.

Providing material support to a revolution isn't the same thing as an assassination. Due process doesn't apply on a battlefield, but it should apply to a prisoner in custody.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#80

Post by potatolicious »

tkahn6 wrote: post #72
kabuks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of civilized. Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US. True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much 'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law. On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft that we have here in t…

I suspect if you were a Copt you'd have a much different perspective.

I suspect if you were black in America you'd have a much different perspective. Or Mexican.

There are marginalized, abused groups everywhere. The West fares no better, though it does make it look cleaner (e.g., rampant discrimination is codified by law instead of remaining unwritten).

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