Finland will seek NATO membership immediately • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#901

Post by refurb » Thu, May 12, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #618

refurb wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument isn't "we should let Russia invade Ukraine". The argument is "if the US could be so wrong about the best path forward in Vietnam and Iraq, why are we so sure we're right about Ukraine"? Instead of viewing everything from a US/Western European/NATO lens, take a step back and ask "If I were Russia how would I view this?". The idea is that if not expanding NATO stops Russia from invading Eastern European co…

So do you agree that letting Russia invade Ukraine is wrong? Like I said, the US was wrong to invade Vietnam and Iraq, and Russia is just as wrong to invade Ukraine. > take a step back and ask "If I were Russia how would I view this?" As a big mistake. Russia is not getting anything out of this that's going to help Russia in any way. Russia has made itself the enemy of everybody around them. They've completely aliena…

What do you mean “letting Russia”? We didn’t let them do anything, they just did it.

And maybe a better analogy is if your next door neighbor was blasting music at 2am.

They’re wrong but you have a choice:1) call the cops and now you have a pissed of neighbor you get to live with forever or 2) go over and nicely ask them to turn it down.

The neighbor is wrong and your right to call the cops but you may just screw yourself over rather than just nicely asking them to turn it down.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#902

Post by usr1106 » Fri, May 13, 2022, 12:04 AM UTC

trashtester wrote: post #898

toyg wrote: post #812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they could expel Hungary from Nato I don't think anyone wants that big hole on the alliance's border. Hungary might not be as critically positioned as Turkey, but it's still in a pretty awkward place. But as you say, Orban could drag his feet a bit. Chances are his party enjoyed direct funding from Moscow, like others in their orbit all over Europe.

Maybe I'm biased as someone living much further north, but it seems to me that Sweden and Finland have more strategic geographic importance than Hungary, at least as long as Ukraine doesn't fall completely (ie as long as Russia doesn't get a common border with Hungary). Without a shared border with Russia, Hungary's usefulness in a conflict would be relatively limited for Russia. On the other hand, for it would be hi…

> Sweden and Finland both have long democratic traditions

Very different ones.

Sweden has been independent forever and a democracy since 1921.

Finland was first a part of Sweden, later an autonomous part of Russia. In 1917 it became independent and a democracy. However, a bloody civil war followed. Although it did not last long, consequences in politics and society remained visble for generations. Between 1945 and 1990 there were limitations to the democracy. They would only do what was assumed not to annoy the Soviets too much. Party leaders and prime ministers were chosen according to that principle. Freedom of the press existed only as long it was not too negative about the Soviet Union.

While it changed with the end of the Soviet Union in 1990, they could join EU 1995, applying for NATO marks only the real end of that period that they could not freely determine the direction of their country.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#903

Post by actionfromafar » Fri, May 13, 2022, 12:09 AM UTC

koolba wrote: post #275

rocqua wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK kicking someone out of NATO is very difficult. Otherwise I suspect that about 5 years ago Turkey would have been at risk of being removed.

Not just difficult, it impossible. There’s no provisions for removal. The closest thing to kicking someone out of NATO would be all the other countries simultaneously withdrawing and forming NATO 2.0.

The EU was on the verge of doing that not too long ago over the Lissabon accords.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#904

Post by usr1106 » Fri, May 13, 2022, 12:28 AM UTC

trashtester wrote: post #797

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> And yet, Russia has usually a higher voter turnout for presidential elections. Yet, Putin approval is at a sky high of 82% while Biden is plummeting at 42%, just the half The most important mark of a democracy is the ability to get rid of unpopular leaders at the end of their term, as the US did in 2020 and may be doing in 2024. The mark of a dictatorship, on the other hand, is that they subdue any opposition by an…

> Putin approval is a sky high of 82%

After all independent media got closed down, put to prison or killed. The vast majority of those 80% watch only TV, a brain washing machine telling the world is full of Nazis and NATO threatening the existence of Russia.

Everybody in Russia knows that for being against Putin you can be beaten up by the police, put to prison and whatnot. So how many dare to answer what they really think when they suddenly get a phone call from an unknown person?

I am sure both exist. The brainwashed ones who believe all the lies and those who don't dare to admit that they don't believe it. How the percentages are proably nobody has too good guesses.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#905

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, May 13, 2022, 12:37 AM UTC

toxik wrote: post #714

wolverine876 wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All 8 parties represented there have collaborated on this. Imagine a country where one major party doesn't sell itself by obstructing everything.

To be fair, there is no partisan issues in the US over helping Ukraine either. People unite against a common enemy -- it's like that old wisdom, the worst thing to happen to the US was winning the cold war.

> To be fair, there is no partisan issues in the US over helping Ukraine either.

One of Trump's impeachments was over extorting stuff from Zelensky - "I would like you to do us a favor, though", all 57 House "no" votes to the latest aid bill are Republican, and Rand Paul just held it up in the Senate today.

There's some partisan component to it.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#906

Post by diedyesterday » Fri, May 13, 2022, 1:17 AM UTC

It's about time these lazy Euro countries contributed to their own security instead of just taking it for granted as always, assuming the rest of NATO members (specially the active ones) would be there for them, without themselves bearing any cost or even paying it any active attention.

Similar to how those who have not vaccinated themselves enjoy the collective immunity that others (who have taken the trouble/time/cost/etc. to get vaccinated) have provided for them.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#907

Post by jansen555 » Fri, May 13, 2022, 2:29 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #2

There was some discussion on plausible NATO membership of Finland and Sweden. At that point the disucssion was based on guestimates from media. But now it's official. This is not the NATO membership application, but a statement from the political leadership in Finland that they support and suggest parliament proceeds with the application process with maximum urgency. The President and Prime Minister of Finland have p…

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#908

Post by refurb » Fri, May 13, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

doikor wrote: post #493

refurb wrote: post #243

Anyone see any resemblance to the defense treaties of WW1?

Not really as there basically is only one big defense treaty in the form of NATO. For it to be similar there would have to be 2 or 3 defense treaties of roughly the same size/strength which Russia does not come anywhere close to.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#909

Post by 99_00 » Fri, May 13, 2022, 3:19 AM UTC

I wonder how the Finnish people will feel the next time something like the 2011 military intervention in Libya, or the invasion of Afghanistan, or the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia takes place.

On the other hand, it's clear that the Russian military is a complete joke. It's being ripped apart by militias.

One has to wonder what developed nation, even a small one, with nation with trained and disciplined armed forces would do to it.

To me the Ukraine situation shows the pointlessness of NATAO more than anything else.

Russia is too weak to be a threat.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#910

Post by meepmorp » Fri, May 13, 2022, 3:30 AM UTC

maratc wrote: post #854

mrits wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a doubt NATO would release every single nuke needed to make sure Russia can't launch another missile. We'd take tremendous damage and introduce a possibility of nuclear winter, but we aren't going to sit around and wonder what other targets Russia has in mind. So yeah, we'd blast them back before the first nukes even landed.

Interesting. And what would be your suggestions on the nuclear missiles that are based on Russian submarines that are wandering somewhere in the ocean?

Attack subs. The US alone has 60 nuclear ones, able to pursue Russian missile boats.