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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#871

Post by agapon »

denton-scratch wrote: post #755
KptMarchewa wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a "defensive pact" does not exclude preventing genocide next to it's borders. The fact that you call it "the issue of Kosovo" is telling.

> Being a "defensive pact" does not exclude preventing genocide next to it's borders. Actually, it does. Kosovo and Iraq are clear evidence that NATO is not a defensive pact. Neither attack was preceded by a judicial ruling that genocide was occurring (and genocide is very difficult to prove). I'm afraid those attacks seriously undermined NATO's moral authority as a "defensive pact".

AFAIK, the Iraq invasion had nothing to do with NATO. It was done by the US with some NATO (and non-NATO) countries joining it. For example, France was strongly opposed.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#872

Post by Melting_Harps »

helloworld11 wrote: post #697
Melting_Harps wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even Ukraine said they aren’t interested in fighting for the eastern parts of the country because the local population will likely be hostile and make their jobs much harder. Source? This is simply not the case, their is intense fighting in the Donbas region by both UA and Foreign legions, and places like Bucha and Kharkiv are all on the East and are all subject to the indiscriminate shelling of residential areas o…

I'm honestly curious, how did/are bitcoiners using BTC and crypto tech to help people in these regions? What's the methodology? And also for actually spending/using the coins. Also, from your wider comment, by the way you phrased it, I can't quite tell who you're saying is shelling ethnically Russian men, women and children in these areas a crime against humanity, the Ukrainian military or the Russians?

> I'm honestly curious, how did/are bitcoiners using BTC and crypto tech to help people in these regions? What's the methodology? And also for actually spending/using the coins.

Start here [0], this discusses BTC involvement in the Maidan Revolution, and then the come back alive campaign with the Azov in the Donbas region in 2014, and then touches on the Government backed initiative by the Ukrainian Ministry of digital reform in '22. Ultimately, the Zelensky government backed the creation of United24 with BTC at it's core.

It's worth doing your own research, I can assure you it's really worth your time to see how effective open source technology can boot-strap itself so quickly in conflict zones. Ultimately, it's a testament of Human ingenuity and perseverance in some of the most daunting situations.

> Also, from your wider comment, by the way you phrased it, I can't quite tell who you're saying is shelling ethnically Russian men, women and children in these areas a crime against humanity, the Ukrainian military or the Russians?

Sorry?

Even if you were completely lost by what I wrote, are you seriously not aware of what is happening in Crimea, Kharkiv, Bucha, Irpin, Mariupol? It's Russians killing other Ethnic Russians on the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine; then turning around and saying it's Ukrainians killing their own citizens as we see Russian soldiers shell, loot, steal, rape, murder all over Ukraine without any hesitation or regard for Human life.

0: https://www.elliptic.co/blog/ukrainians-turn-to-bitcoin-to-c...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#873

Post by mihaaly »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #525
rich_sasha wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vetos are somewhat overrated. Agents may have the right to veto, but might not have the power to deal with the consequences. Russia has a UN veto and uses it, because they can weather the consequences. Could Hungary piss off all of its allies, trade partners, basically everyone but Russia? Doubtful. Hungary is playing a skillful, if somewhat devious, game of balancing between Russia and the West. But an outright FU t…

And yet Ungary alone is stopping the 6th round of Russia sanctions from the EU. They are not afraid to veto to protect their interests, like any nation should do. It's not a coincidence that von der leyen wants to change the voting system from hunanimity to majority. They don't like to lose, and the rules are fine only as long as they can do what they want. So vetoes have more power than you would let us think.

It is one thing protecting interest and an other abusing a possibility almost all the time, blackmailing allies and distorting group efforts.

Btw. the ruling party - practically means Orbán himself - is more like protecting personal interest than the contry's, likely (very likely) financial interests of self while the country's interest is completely elsewhere concerning both financial and the big picture.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#874

Post by agapon »

aiilns wrote: post #648
simonh wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with Putin either, but I also agree that his actions make sense within his own frame of reference. It's not just about whether the Ukrainian's lives would be better from any observer's opinion. Nor is it a matter of them 'being under ... influence' as though they have no agency and are simply chaff blown in the wind. This conflict is fundamentally not about influence over Ukrainians, but about the Ukrai…

I won't pretend to be an expert on the matter, but I do not agree with your view. For one, I think you are seriously misrepresenting USA's position. It's the biggest military power in the West and possibly the world, a country with military bases and operations all around the world. That the USA does not concern itself with other countries' matters is, sorry to say, laughable. I also don't agree with your position th…

This is just a bunch of Russian propaganda bullshit. Starting with completely skewing order of historical events. For starters, Poroshenko was elected a president well after the Russian incursion into Donbas had begun (google for Girkin / Strelkov, Sloviansk).

Either you know shit about Ukraine 2013-2014 or you are just a Russian propaganda tool.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#875

Post by watwut »

maratc wrote: post #867
watwut wrote: post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way did Ukraine doubled down? What exact step made it more likely?

Ukraine has done joint "war games" with NATO ships in 2020 and 2021 (see HMS Dragon and HMS Defender for example). On November 11, 2021 Russian jets were scrambled to intercept "British spy plane". On November 29, 2021, a NATO summit was held in Riga, where the commitment to admitting Georgia and Ukraine was repeated, and the idea of sending NATO soldiers to Ukraine was discussed. Zelenskyy was quoted repeatedly sayi…

It sounds like Ukraine training their army. Lets be honest, theybwere post soviet sucky army and they are capable now because of learning from west armies. Nato soldiers in Ukraine would be good idea,the peacekeeping mission might have prevented genocide.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#876

Post by maratc »

watwut wrote: post #875
maratc wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine has done joint "war games" with NATO ships in 2020 and 2021 (see HMS Dragon and HMS Defender for example). On November 11, 2021 Russian jets were scrambled to intercept "British spy plane". On November 29, 2021, a NATO summit was held in Riga, where the commitment to admitting Georgia and Ukraine was repeated, and the idea of sending NATO soldiers to Ukraine was discussed. Zelenskyy was quoted repeatedly sayi…

It sounds like Ukraine training their army. Lets be honest, theybwere post soviet sucky army and they are capable now because of learning from west armies. Nato soldiers in Ukraine would be good idea,the peacekeeping mission might have prevented genocide.

> It sounds like Ukraine training their army

I might agree, but in the end, what I think — or what you think — does not matter. The only thing that matters is what Russians think. What do you think they think this sounds like?

> Nato soldiers in Ukraine would be good idea

Well.

The NATO forces in Poland numbered about 1,000 (before this thing blew up). The whole Polish army (Wojsko Polskie) number about 144,000. What do you think is the exact mission of these NATO forces, amounting to about 0.66% of the total? (Hint: it's not a symbolic gesture.)

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#877

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jacquesm wrote: post #857
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia also has not committed to a NFU policy. In fact, they have explicitly stated that, if Russia's survival is threatened (such as, you're rolling tanks over their border), then nukes are in play. Of course, the problem is that Putin has a very expansive idea of "what threatens Russia"...

Putins ideas of what threatens Russia are not rooted in reality.

I absolutely agree. It's just that, if Putin has these unrealistic ideas of what threatens Russia (like an independent Ukraine), and Putin has stated that Russia can use nukes if it is threatened, and Putin is the one who gets to make the call about whether Russia is threatened enough to use nukes... then I really don't like that one man, disconnected from reality, can start a nuclear war.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#878

Post by ptr »

herbst wrote: post #215
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not an american, nor russian. i come from a third world country far from this drama. to me, "russian propaganda" is the same as "american propaganda" which demonizes the other and calls their version as the "ultimate truth". don't americans/west see their media/actions as what it is, propaganda aganinst russia? blocking RT across america/EU is seen as protecting free speech but god forbid if russia reciprocates…

I am totally with you. There is so much propaganda in this war it's borderline impossible to get anything but a cloudy view on things. Until recently Ukraine was only in media for their gov breaking human rights and stuff like this, and now it's suddenly the long lost brother we all love so much. Sure RT was full of bullshit, but so are many local papers, Facebook and everything else. People taking clear sides when a…

> There is so much propaganda in this war it's borderline impossible to get anything but a cloudy view on things.

No, this is incorrect. You can definitely get a pretty good picture. Saying that “you can only get a cloudy view” is a common Russian propaganda tactic aiming to neutralize the target.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#879

Post by Regic »

stult wrote: post #840
Regic wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hungarian leading party (fidesz) has already declared they will not veto Ukrain's adoption to the EU so I personally really doubt they would veto Finland's entry to the NATO. They are playing a double-game (sorry, this probably doesn't make sense in english, it's a hungarian expression): Orban had a famous quote he said to EU leaders "don't listen to what I say, only to what I do", which in practice means alienat…

We don't have that phrase in English but it translates very clearly. Interestingly, your description of Orban's behavior exactly matches a somewhat famous game theoretic analysis of international leaders' behavior called "the two-level game." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-level_game_theory He's not unique in this regard. Every national leader has to consider the interests and perceptions of their domestic power b…

While the framework of differentiation between intranational and international interests fits, it is certainly not "for the good of the people" in this case. Orban antagonized the EU because it was unlikely that he would be punished for it. This is textbook right wing populism: make an enemy out of some group that is unlikely to hit back and you can appear strong. This is often done against minorities but the EU is perfect for it as it is powerful enough to actually look like a threat but has no means to punish small "violations".

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#880

Post by trashtester »

DocTomoe wrote: post #389
sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

NATO won't accept members that are entangled in regional conflicts which may turn into wars soon (that's why Ukraine couldn't apply anymore after 2014). So Russia's solution would be to start such a conflict, sooner rather than later.

I think the greater reason for hesitating to accept Ukraine up until now would be their still-unstable democracy and high level of corruption.

When the war is over, it may be that the new-found unity caused by the external threat will be enough for them to reinforce their institutions significantly. This could reach a point that could ensure lasting democracy while enabling them to properly fight/eliminate most corruption. At that point, combined with a peace treaty with Russia, they should be able to Join.

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