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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#631

Post by BenoitP »

jcranberry wrote: post #557
rich_sasha wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vetos are somewhat overrated. Agents may have the right to veto, but might not have the power to deal with the consequences. Russia has a UN veto and uses it, because they can weather the consequences. Could Hungary piss off all of its allies, trade partners, basically everyone but Russia? Doubtful. Hungary is playing a skillful, if somewhat devious, game of balancing between Russia and the West. But an outright FU t…

What would be realistic fallout from vetoing their application?

Something along these lines:

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220405-top-eu-body-laun...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#632

Post by antris »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #421
antris wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can't game a 76% support for any cause in a few months in a liberal democracy. I suggest reading on Manufacturing Consent. People living in liberal democracies are swayed all the time. It has happened over and over again. Probably the most notable example being USA after 9/11. Bush approval rating spiked from 60% to 92%. When scary things happen, media coverage and politicians can together make drastic changes t…

>Probably the most notable example being USA after 9/11.Probably the most notable example being USA after 9/11. When scary things happen, media coverage and politicians can together make drastic changes to public opinion. That's an weird assertion. People genuinly liked his first reaction.

Nobody is denying that. That's literally what I said when I said the approval ratings spiked to 92% (which you cut out from the quote). Consent can be manufactured, and the result is that people genuinely consent to the narratives given by the media.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#633

Post by bnt »

rich_sasha wrote: post #575
jcranberry wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be realistic fallout from vetoing their application?

Well, plenty of potential things. In strictly defence terms, they buy weaponry from US and Germany. Hungarian air force operates Swedish Gripen fighters and thus most likely relies on Sweden at least for spare parts (which military jets need lots of) so here's another pressure point. They are big beneficiaries of EU funding (not a NATO thing but this is all intertwined) and already at odds with EU rules, which could…

Sweden not selling them parts would be the end of Sweden selling planes to anyone.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#634

Post by suture »

FpUser wrote: post #621
suture wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an American. For many decades the idea that the U.S. props up the rest of world at the expense of focusing on our people has been a strong one. It was very strong going into the 80s but has becomes less so since then. It is still used from time to time galvanize right leaning people. There is a strong isolationist bent within the U.S. too. I do believe Trump was correct to criticize the lack of defense spending b…

>"For many decades the idea that the U.S. props up the rest of world ..." It does not do it for free. It gets many benefits from "the rest of the world". Like buying US debt, trading oil in US dollars, access to cheap labor, bigger market etc. etc. Nothing of what it does is "free". This giant war spending also helps them to bomb other countries into oblivion when they feel like.

Yes. I was just commenting on how Americans see things. As a people we are extremely ignorant of international matters and don’t take into account that our over sized military does pay dividends. I don’t agree that those dividends are worthwhile anymore though. We are a nation with a first class military, first class level of cultural influence, first class level of soft and hard power that has second rate social programs. I would like that to be reversed.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#635

Post by Ciantic »

ssl232 wrote: post #182
jusssi wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Finnish point of view the case for NATO has become quite clear. There were a number of reasons why we used to believe Russia won't be invading us any time soon. 1. The invader would suffer a massive penalty for their reputation: didn't stop them from invading Ukraine. 2. The invader would be hit with massive economic sanctions: see 1. 3. Even unassisted, we would be able to mount a defense that can cause maj…

Those are good points to that I hadn't considered. As a Finn (?), what are your feelings with regards to your historical neutrality being broken by joining NATO? Surely many Finnish politicians past and present will have fought hard for that to remain the case and this will be breaking that precedent.

I'm Finnish, neutrality part is true for Swedish people but not for Finns. In Finland politicians have kept saying we are aligned towards EU. Practically none has said we are neutral. Secondly politicians have for decades used wording "NATO-option" (even if NATO support was negligible before the war), that it's an option we can take if we want. It's even listed in government's program.

Sweden has history of neutrality and partly it's in their identity. That is why NATO membership is significantly more difficult for Swedish. It's evident in their media, and leading Social Democratic party is somewhat split there.

It might be that Sweden sends the NATO application without vote in the parliament with just vote in defense committee. Which means that Sweden might end up sending application earlier since in Finland the process must go through parliament.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#636

Post by paganel »

rocqua wrote: post #141
martimarkov wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can also be kicked out ;) Edit: Here is some thoughts one it: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/28337/on-what-g...

AFAIK kicking someone out of NATO is very difficult. Otherwise I suspect that about 5 years ago Turkey would have been at risk of being removed.

Short of Turkey committing some highly-publicised genocide its NATO membership is secured, the country's geo-strategic position is too important to just let it go to "the enemy's side".

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#637

Post by dekerta »

whb07 wrote: post #630

Hurray for US citizens footing the security bill for more of the EU. If the US goes bankrupt (it already is), makes one wonder if the other countries will come to our aid and supply us with money, weapons, personnel when the time comes.

That's not how NATO works. This will not affect US taxpayers

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#638

Post by hemreldop »

stoltzmann wrote: post #173
mcv wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a serious problem for NATO if a pro-Russian Hungary could basically act as a fifth column and cripple NATO by vetoing everything. There simply has to be a process to kick out insincere members.

The issue with kicking out members is that it starts a precedent. The idea is that NATO got your back if you're in, you won't get kicked out if your membership starts being inconvenient, and that the other members will act when Article 5 is invoked.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#639

Post by CRConrad »

T-zex wrote: post #348
pmontra wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to thi…

Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind. Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит"). Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies…

The de-totalitarianization of the people will have to be all the more thorough.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#640

Post by stickfigure »

bnt wrote: post #633
rich_sasha wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, plenty of potential things. In strictly defence terms, they buy weaponry from US and Germany. Hungarian air force operates Swedish Gripen fighters and thus most likely relies on Sweden at least for spare parts (which military jets need lots of) so here's another pressure point. They are big beneficiaries of EU funding (not a NATO thing but this is all intertwined) and already at odds with EU rules, which could…

Sweden not selling them parts would be the end of Sweden selling planes to anyone.

Sweden entering NATO could be the beginning of Sweden selling planes to NATO.
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