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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#551

Post by supergirl »

stackedinserter wrote: post #528
supergirl wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is he wrong? the sole purpose of NATO is to counter Russia. that's why it was formed in the first place (against the Soviet Union, at that time).

The sole purpose of NATO is to defend from Russia. Nations join NATO because they afraid of Russia, not because they want to conquer Smolensk.

defense doesn't have to mean "wait to be attacked and then fire back". obviously defense is an ongoing process to weaken the enemy: e.g. arranging coups.

NATO even bombed countries without having been attacked (Yugoslavia, Libya); I'm sure they have no issue with launching more covert, deniable, attacks.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#552

Post by bryanrasmussen »

tsimionescu wrote: post #505
sorokod wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a proxy war between Russia and NATO That is not how people of Ukraine see this.

With the US alone investing 40 billion dollars in the war, they're simply wrong if they don't see it this way.

As I have always understood the concept of proxy war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war there should be another party behind Russia prompting it's actions (since it attacked)

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#553

Post by ethbr0 »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #504
ethbr0 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would NATO ships do there? Sail an unarmed NATO-flagged vessel to the Azovstal Steel Plant and evacuate troops?

Couldn't Romania do that without involving the Bosporus?

They could. But physical and economic proximity to Russia probably make it a tougher call than someone like the US.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#554

Post by kibwen »

logifail wrote: post #162
sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

> In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger Umm ... wasn't that what people thought of the alliances and treaties[0] just before the First World War? [0] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-you-need-to-know-about-p...

The problem in WWI was that alliances were made in secret. A secret defensive pact can't deter anyone. NATO is anything but secret.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#555

Post by bandyaboot »

netsharc wrote: post #449
myko wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining NATO is literally in the Ukrainian constitution. It is not optional, attempting to join is a requirement of the government of Ukraine and not working toward that end would be unconstitutional.

Geez, I'm on Ukraine's side, but "It's in this document so we have no option but to do it" is not a valid argument. For what reason is it in the constitution, when did it get in, then you can make a substantive argument. What next, should I write "the bank has to give me $1M" on a piece of paper and show it to the bank teller?

> What next, should I write "the bank has to give me $1M" on a piece of paper and show it to the bank teller?

That might be a reasonable analogy if the constitution declared that they must be a NATO member—-asserting that it can obligate an outside entity into taking a particular action. But, it does not do that.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#556

Post by kibwen »

matsemann wrote: post #149
klausjensen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK has also made written guarantees to protect Finland (and Sweden) during the application process. In practical reality, if Russia were to attack Finland or Sweden now, the answer from NATO would be pretty much the same as if they were already members.

If Sweden got attacked, most Norwegians would want to help them somehow, ending up dragging NATO into the ordeal anyways, is my thought.

Norway would only be able to drag NATO into a war if Norway were attacked on its own soil.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#557

Post by jcranberry »

rich_sasha wrote: post #496
andruby wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Hungary and it's seemingly pro-Russian leader, Orban? They could vote against.

Vetos are somewhat overrated. Agents may have the right to veto, but might not have the power to deal with the consequences. Russia has a UN veto and uses it, because they can weather the consequences. Could Hungary piss off all of its allies, trade partners, basically everyone but Russia? Doubtful. Hungary is playing a skillful, if somewhat devious, game of balancing between Russia and the West. But an outright FU t…

What would be realistic fallout from vetoing their application?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#558

Post by foobarian »

senko wrote: post #381
shimonabi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Croat president has publicly said he will veto new members if the status of the Croat minority in Bosnia and Herzegovina is not improved legally. https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/croat-p...

The Croatian president is stupid (as is the Prime Minister, fwiw), with little actual power, and spewing things left and right to make himself more relevant. Thankfully, Croatia doesn't have any real influence in NATO so nobody will be obliged to listen to that stupidity. Source: I live in Croatia.

You know what bugs me about Croatia. Everyone complains about how terrible it is, politicians are stupid and corrupt, nepotism everywhere, etc etc and please leave somewhere better as soon as you can, but then when you do the tune changes and now it is the nicest place on Earth with natural beauty and beaches and good life and come back as soon as you can. It's a real conundrum.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#559

Post by im3w1l »

tyleo wrote: post #397
refurb wrote: post #243

Anyone see any resemblance to the defense treaties of WW1?

Not quite. My understanding of WW1 is that the defense treaties were like multiple nets that all made enemies of each other come wartime. Today it seems that NATO is one big net and Russia is more or less an isolated node with no seriously powerful country to call to for help.

Wouldn't surprise me if Russia had a secret treaty with China.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#560

Post by ceejayoz »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #521
fsloth wrote: post #2

There was some discussion on plausible NATO membership of Finland and Sweden. At that point the disucssion was based on guestimates from media. But now it's official. This is not the NATO membership application, but a statement from the political leadership in Finland that they support and suggest parliament proceeds with the application process with maximum urgency. The President and Prime Minister of Finland have p…

There is no "application process". NATO is invite only. Best a nation can do is to "start a discussion" with NATO to get invited.

That seems like silly semantics. The "application process" is to express interest and ask for an invite.
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